Pearl Lam (林明珠): Hello, this is Pearl Lam Podcast. I’m here in Hong Kong and today I have my wonderful friend Scott Stover. Scott, can you give a brief about yourself.

Scott Stover: What would you like me to tell you?

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Oh, not me, to tell the audience who you are, what have you been doing and more…

Scott Stover: Well, I’ve been born in Chicago. I went to school in New York and at my university, I went to Columbia University.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Which is in a big problem now.

Scott Stover: Big problem now, but who knows I mean all of the universities are in a big problem at the moment and Columbia has a house in Paris called Reed Hall. And it was kind of, it was really instrumental to my story is that I spent my junior year and Columbia undergraduate students were able to live in Reed Hall. Reed Hall was this beautiful 18th century house with a garden in the centre in the middle of Paris. And it completely fixated my idea of living in Paris.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): And at the time, could you speak French yet?

Scott Stover: Yeah, yes!

Pearl Lam (林明珠): You already spoke French?

Scott Stover: Yeah, I was already speaking French, but then my French was perfected and I went to a university in Paris.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I think you have to tell people about your career.

Scott Stover: So my career, I have an undergraduate degree in comparative literature and then I have an MBA. And I believe that my idea was always that I would either work in a publishing house or at a museum, that having this combination of undergraduate in literature and liberal arts and a graduate degree in finance, that I would be able to use it in an unusual way. And of course, what happens when I finish Business School, I worked for a bank.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): You want you want to make money.

Scott Stover: In the end, I remember what happened was I had an interview with the best publishing firm for my background, which was called for our Farrar, Straus and Giroux, which publishes all the French intellectuals and the philosophers and intellectuals. And they offered me a salary, I think it was $6000 a year, which was impossible to live on. Everybody who worked at those prestigious publishing firms basically had a trust fund. I did not have a trust fund and I accepted the job at a bank.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): To be practical, yeah!

Scott Stover: To the reality was the bank. Basically I began working in the bank in a think tank. It was a think tank that existed to think about how the future trends would influence the banking industry. So it appealed to me because it was the intellectual part of the bank. And when I began doing it, then quickly I realised that no one listened to us and that if you’re going to work in a bank, you have to work in something that the bank was actually doing. So gradually, I remember I had an interview with the head of the bank and told them that I spoke French and that I lived in Paris and that I should be in Paris. And he told me we never send people to the place where they’ve lived, where they speak the language. But then eventually I began working in a sector which was French speaking black Africa. And at that time, Africa again, as it is today, was seen as the place of the future. So I began to built up a whole business for the bank in French speaking black Africa. And then it became obvious that we had, that it was inconvenient to be travelling from the United States. So I then moved it to Paris. So I eventually was able to manipulate what I wanted and the whole French speaking black Africa was headed out of the Paris office of the Bank. So I began working on that. Then eventually every eight years I changed the asset class with which I was working. I then worked on emerging markets and after that the final asset class I worked on was called Special Situations.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): What is a Special Situation?

Scott Stover: And I became head of Special Situations for the bank in continental Europe. Special Situations is exactly what it seems, which is companies that have some kind of difficulty, difficulty or issue. So basically which is really, I believe what I’m doing now is modelled after what I was doing there is modelled from two things. Special Situations is also modelled after the fact that I’ve been psychoanalysed. Two of the frameworks of which I worked on are Special Situations and having been psychoanalysed. So Special Situations basically what it is, is the company has to come to you and say I have a problem. I have a problem and they have to say, you know, the problem is this and I think I can do this, this and that. And then the bank has to determine whether or not they can subscribe to this change. And if they can participate, usually we participate either in the debt or in the increase in capital for the company. And then you help the company actually precipitate the event where it will improve.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): So, Scott, how did you, when I met you at the time, years ago, you were building American Friends of Centre Pompidou and you were a serious banker. How can a banker just jump and become and start working for a museum?

Scott Stover: It was very serendipitous. And what it was about is I was working with two buddies on getting together a hedge fund. The hedge fund was on Special Situations, continental Europe, and we weren’t getting the investors and at that point.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): You were not getting it.

Scott Stover: We weren’t finding the investors we needed to start the hedge fund. Well, whatever reason, I mean, it turns out that my friends went on and they found the investors, but I was getting impatient. And you know, I have a modest collection of contemporary art and I believe in public institutions, I believe in museums and I’m interested in curators. So there weren’t that many American bankers living in Paris who were collecting contemporary arts, of course. So, I was rather close with quite a few curators from Song Pompidou. Song Pompidou being really one of the great institutions in the world of modern and contemporary marks, you know, incredible. So I was very close with many of the curators of Song Pompidou and also with the management. And at that time, if you remember this was 2005. I think 2005, at that time, Nick Sirota was on the tape and Nick Sirota created a revolution in the European development model. He was able to, he captured the moment when all of the world’s wealthy were coming to live in London. And he created these series of acquisition committees from different parts of the world for all of the people. And it completely changed what the European Museum would seek funding. So the president of the Pompidou, who I knew his name was Bruno Haseen, he asked me, he said, Scott, you see what Nick Sirota is doing? You know, what do you think we could do? Do you think we could do something? You know, and shouldn’t we begin in America if we do something? And I said, I don’t know. And I said I have to think about it. So I thought about it. Then we continue discussions. And then he asked me, could I write a paper on it? And I said sure. So I wrote a paper about what I thought we should be doing. And then he said to me, we want you to do it. So that’s really how it happened. It was just, and I thought, you know, my God, basically, you know, the environment in France is an unfavourable fiscal environment. Yes. You know, my accountant kept telling me, you know, you have to leave France. And a lot of my friends, all of the friends who were successful in finance and most of them had gone to London. It happened so that I don’t like London.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): You don’t like London, How can you not like London?

Scott Stover: I don’t like London and, basically, I like America.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Because you are American, of course.

Scott Stover: And I like Americans. And I thought, my God, and I thought I did the MBA and I wanted to work at a museum here. All of a sudden he’s giving me the opportunity. Bruno, I’ve seen, is giving me the opportunity to work with one of the great museums in the world. And I had not lived in America my whole adult life. I had only lived in Paris. And I thought, well, this is the opportunity. Voila. So that’s how it happened. So it was completely serendipitous. And then basically it was the model for everything that I do and the model.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): When you say the model of everything you do. Explain that model. Elaborate please.

Scott Stover: Yeah, the model is basically that nonprofit projects should be structured like for profit projects. They should, they should have a business plan, they should have a strategy, a business plan, 135 and preferably 10 years, particularly if you want them to be sustainable and you also have to look at the competitive environment.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): You left being the head of the American Friends of Centre Pompidou. Is this still sustainable? After you left, you talked about sustainability. Is this still sustainable?

Scott Stover: The current chairman, so this is now 20 years after I began it, is someone who I brought in. Suzanne, Suzanne Deal Booth is now the chair of the American Friends of the Pompadou. And the previous chair, Steven Gutman, since I left, is also someone that I brought in. So it is sustainable. And then and they just recently celebrated the 20 years and I was recognised and there’s a little book and all of this. So,so yes, it is sustainable. The structure is different.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): The structure is different.

Scott Stover: The structure is slightly different than when I did it, but it has sustained.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): So who is standing in your place?

Scott Stover: No one.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): No.

Scott Stover: Basically, during the eight years when I was executive director. So I’m founding executive director of the Saint Pompidou Foundation, I raised the equivalent of $50 million.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah.

Scott Stover: And then I, after I stopped being executive director, I was on the board for another two years. So I basically worked for the Pompidou for 10 years. So in that period $50 million was a lot of money, and the French were the French.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): The French you never.

Scott Stover: Raised, you know, about a million and a half a year and the majority comes from one person, one or two very generous French individuals, you know, would give a check when asked. So as you can imagine, you know, everybody was looking at what I was doing, everybody in this universe of museum development universe, mostly because they know the French are not user friendly. And how was Scott able to be so successful? So people were looking at it a bit, but what that meant is the French were uncomfortable. What would the Americans want when they’re providing all of this money for their French institutions? What do they, what will they ask? They must want something in return. Voila. So basically after I left, they were able to change the structure to have everything controlled from Paris. So basically I had set up an autonomous US structure because it’s US foundation in the same way that the Louvre has that the Tate has that, you know, one of the, the great example is the Ashmolean, the American friends of the Ashmolean. We all have autonomous US structures in play. Given the importance of the US donor, they all exist in the same way. I did the same way, but the political environment at the museum at that time did not like that there was an autonomous US structure. So since I left, they were able to consolidate everything in Paris.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Oh, interesting. Oh my God, you actually raised 50 million for Pompidou! Yeah, very good. I also visited the Glass House, which I thought was amazing. Let’s talk. I mean, the Glass House is Pierre Koenig only architecture, the only building and you got it to be donated to Pompidou. No?

Scott Stover: No, no, no, no. The Glass House, yes, belongs to my first chairman, who is Rob Rubin, who is, you know, a very close friend of mine. He has not donated. Lemme only there. He donated the Prouvé Tropical House.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Where is the Prouvé Tropical?

Scott Stover: It belongs to the Centré Pompidou. So the first major donation that I was able to get for the Centré Pompidou was and it was a time when Prouvé was not what is not known like he is today.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Well, today that House.

Scott Stover: So he gave, he gave, he bought and he renovated the tropical house which he gave to the Pompadou. And for several years it was. It was shown on one of the terraces at the Pompidou.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): So and so did he also own the Glass House?

Scott Stover: Maison de Verre

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, because when you, when you took me there, yeah, that was not donated there?

Scott Stover: No, it is. Still is not, and I don’t think I don’t.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Think that is an architectural miracle. I mean that.

Scott Stover: I don’t think it’s his intention to.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Establishment.

Scott Stover: Yeah, it’s an extraordinary piece.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Extraordinary, extraordinary. OK, let’s talk about. So after what makes me feel that I really need to invite you for and for this podcast. It’s because from a banker you start to work at a museum and now you are advising people how to create charity, nonprofit, initial nonprofit in I mean organisational.

Scott Stover: It’s exactly the same. I work in the same framework, so the framework is.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): But hold on first. What makes you, what inspires you to do that first thing? What is the inspiration?

Scott Stover: The inspiration is to do good for society. I don’t have the same means as some other people.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): That you can donate.

Scott Stover: So the next best thing that I can do is help them realise what they want to do. So if I’m working, it’s actually the same if I’m working for individuals or if I’m working for companies or foundations. It’s basically very simple and it also has to do with having been psychoanalysed there. I think there are four basic questions that we discuss when you’re beginning this kind of initiative. The first thing is, what do you want to do? Then secondly, why do you want to do this? Why do you want to do this? Thirdly, who is the audience you want to address? And fourthly, what are your criteria for success, in other words?

Pearl Lam (林明珠): And you mean these are the four points for?

Scott Stover: Polls, Polls. When you initiate an initial nonprofit project, OK, you know, you have to address that. And of course, and basically this is the most difficult thing in the work that I do, that first of all, people have to be honest with themself. In other words, there’s nothing good or bad. If someone wants to do this initiative to promote themselves socially, it’s better they’re honest because I don’t want them to be unhappy with their philanthropic activity. They have to be happy, so they have to be honest with themselves, and they basically have to be able to articulate it. Mostly I find people are not clear on what they want to do and why they want to do it.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Tell me more about this, your and your company and how you advise people and all that.

Scott Stover: I realise now that it that I’ve been doing this since, so I’ve been doing this since 2005, that I did invent a profession which is terribly fulfilling to be able to all these people talk to me about their different projects and different ideas and things they want to do to make the world a better place. And mostly I hope I help them realise what they want to do.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I am very interested when you tell me about the other projects that you were doing like the book project, the publisher project.

Scott Stover: The publisher was Kaedar. So Kaedar is a mythic publisher in France.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): When you think it’s mythic, explain that.

Scott Stover: You know, now I can’t. Remember, but I think it began in 1924. I can’t now. I should look up the year. So it was begun in 1924 or something like that by Christian Zervos, who was a Greek immigrant to Paris. And he quickly became friends with all of the great artists who were living in Paris at that time. And he published on an irregular basis, a review like a magazine, usually about twice a year, but on an irregular basis he published a magazine. He had a small shop front on Rue de Dragon and he had exhibitions on Rue de Dragon and he had a printmaking. So he had exhibitions, reviews and printmaking. And he has published all of the famous artists from 1926. I think he died in 1976. During that period, all of the famous artists who we know, Matisse, Picasso, all of them were published and most had exhibitions and many also had printmaking by Kayedar. So it’s any if you’re looking at if you’re studying Picasso, if you’re studying Matisse, you will inevitably looking at old issues of Kayedar’s review. And then he also, he’s probably most famous because he published Picasso’s catalogue resume and catalogue white resume, which is now, I forget it, something like.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): It must be huge

Scott Stover: I can’t remember 3033 volumes or 70. All of a sudden I can’t remember how many volumes, but still it was published. It was. So Zervos, the owner, worked on the catalogue resume while Picasso was alive. So the two were working together. The two were friends. Zervos died and it was completed after Zervos’s death. But it is still the catalogue resume which is the reference for anything that is done on Picasso. So anything that is done in terms of exhibitions or sales, they will refer to the Zervos. But it’s Chris Kayedar Volume X, Page Y is it? So basically in 1976 when the Zervos died, it became dormant. And a Swedish collector who was the son of a very famous Swedish collector, his name is Stefan Ehrenberg. He bought Kayedar with the idea of relaunching all of its activities. So he relaunched all of the activities and he asked me to look at his business and determine whether or not some of the business lines could be spun off into a US Nonprofit.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): To US nonprofit. Yeah. Interesting.

Scott Stover: And so basically it was clear in looking at the business revenues that the activity of catalogue resume was basically catalogue resume you can’t make money. No, you know, it’s just it’s, it has enormous time, etcetera. And so it was obvious that we could spin off the creation, printing, etcetera of catalogue resumes into an US nonprofit having as its mission, you know, it has an education mission open to the public. And I thought that it would have potential to seek in, you know, donors from the US public. So we decided to spin off the catalogue resume function we created. I created the Kaidar Institute and while we were creating it, Stefan had the idea that it should be that the future is digital.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes, of course it is.

Scott Stover: That clearly, you know, printing these because immediately when you print a catalogue resume, it’s out of print. Yeah. So and if you have the, you know, all of the interest of a digital catalogue resume. So we began to seek a solution to create a software which would be able to print the catalogue resume. And in doing that research, we realised that Pace had created Elugio and had created software for catalogue resumes, but they weren’t making money. So we had this idea with Stefan, you know, why don’t we talk to Pace? And Stefan did talk to Pace and he suggested that Pace donate to our newly created US non profit Kaedar Institute, which they agreed to do.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Bravo, voila. When is it when? When is this nonprofit organisation going? Stock exists. It exists. Writing exists.

Scott Stover: It exists. So basically it had already published 8 I believe 8 catalogue resumes which now belong to Kaidar Institute.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): But actually what you are doing is completely out-of-the-box.

Scott Stover: Yeah, it’s completely out-of-the-box.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Completely out of box.

Scott Stover: Inventing something new.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, you are using an investment banking idea, a completely great solution. Actually you’re giving a solution. You’re not just, you’re not just advising something, but if someone has an idea, you give a solution.

Scott Stover: And what I also do, if it’s important, is I agree to run the new nonprofit because that’s what I did with the song.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Foundation are you running?

Scott Stover: No, no, I’m not. I did at the beginning. Yeah. The first two years. So often the first two years I run it, I put everything together, see that it’s functioning, see that everything works. And then often I, you know, pass it on to someone else.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): And now you are helping my artist to build a foundation.

Scott Stover: Absolutely. Yeah. So I have the great joy of working with Sushao Bai and his. Wife. And the idea, as you know, he is 76, I believe his wife is 59. He has been extremely successful. He has three, as you know, three very important, very wealthy collectors who have collected his work in depth. And now he’s mostly interested in his legacy. And what he wants is what he wants, I mean, if I presume that I understand correctly what they want. What he wants is to assure that the world will know his work and the world will know it better.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): After when he passes.

Scott Stover: And after when he passes.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): His work will still be celebrated.

Scott Stover: Absolutely so and.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): That is the most important thing.

Scott Stover: Yeah. So what he wants. So what we’re doing is basically the mission of the foundation is that it becomes better known that we work with museums, that we work with art historians, that we work with curators, and voila, that’s.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): This is quite a straightforward thing.

Scott Stover: Rather straightforward actually, this whole sector of artist endowed foundation.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I mean, that’s very straightforward.

Scott Stover: It’s quite straightforward. This whole sector of artist endowed foundation is a growing sector in my world. So I already have done some work with Vassarelli and I’ve done work with Nikki Samfal. But this is as artists have become successful, particularly, you know, in states artists, but also some European artists. As they become successful, they create their own foundation.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Of course, because no, I mean, there are many artists, American artists actually building foundations, but a lot of them weren’t successful. So how do you see this your, you know, because what you did with your career, what you did this this advisory of nonprofit organisation is actually a very you actually invented this.

Scott Stover: I invented it, but it all seems to have continuity in my mind. I feel it’s all been built in everything that I’ve done, you know, including basically being psychoanalysed because.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Tell us, tell me more about you when you say that you’re special, what special situation, what you did with the bank and how you apply that to what you’re doing now.

Scott Stover: It’ll be the manager, the manager or the founder of a company you know will come to, let’s say they come to me, but it’s not usually just to me. They’ll be shopping around and they will say, you know, I have, I have this problem, you know, usually it could be declining sales, it could be, you know, I need some debt. I mean, whatever a whole series or I have too many assets that I can’t get rid of. You know, they would come to you and they would say, you know, this is the problem and I think that my solution is XYZ, you know, and they would come and they would say they have a problem. They would suggest a solution and then I would work with them in trying to figure out is this a solution? Could there be another solution? And we would create a business plan and then I would usually present it to, you know, a pool of finance people.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): That is what you’re doing now, right?

Scott Stover: It’s the same thing. It’s really very similar to me. It’s very similar and it basically goes back to the fact that the initiator of the project could be the company, which becomes a special situation. It could be the philanthropist who wants to do something. They have to first say that I want to do this and my vision is that and this is why I want to do it and I suggest I should do it in this way. OK, so it all seems very similar to me.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): All right. So the next question for you is that you have a podcast, Yes, it’s called Giving Back is Dead. OK. Do you really believe that giving that back is dead? What are you? What, what do you think about the next 50 years? I’d say, I mean, giving back. Is that so?

Scott Stover: I think that, you know, basically all the people of our generation hate this title, all of the young people I know.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I love it, I love it.

Scott Stover: All the young people love it, you know, and I came up.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Basically because I think it is something that arouses people to think about it.

Scott Stover: That’s right, that was the idea.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): It is, it is, it is. I mean, it is controversial and I don’t think giving it back is dead in America or in Hong Kong.

Scott Stover: It’s not dead.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): But in different countries because of the socialist system, people are unlikely to give as if you are very capitalistic.

Scott Stover: No, I basically said it. I mean, there are a few reasons. One is to be provocative, and I thought to be provocative, people would pay attention. That was the idea. And also it was the idea that I see a change happening in how people give. So I see a tremendous change in how they’re doing it. Basically what is happening. I think it became someone we both know, Neil Benezra, you know, who was the head of SF MO Ma many years ago. He said to me, Scott, I’m unable to engage in Silicon Valley. Can you help? What? What should we do? I can’t, you know, here there are all these wealthy people, Silicon Bay, what should we do? And I said to him, why don’t you go talk to them? I said, why don’t you go talk to them and figure out how you can engage them? You know, I said talk to them. And I realised, and it’s still really much the same as I, that basically what is happening is it’s basically I’m looking at giving in the cultural sector. So I’m talking mostly about, you know, not about giving to the poor. I’m talking about giving to arts and culture, arts, culture, science, you know, mostly I find and particularly, you know, with the museums, what they all do and they continue to do is they come up with a list of things they are offering donors. And if you give 10,000, then you get that. If you give 50, you get that. If you give 100, you get this. And they then give it and they say, what do you choose? That doesn’t work anymore. And it really doesn’t work for the young. So basically, so in particular, and, and So what happened is since I began thinking, well, I said that to Neil, why shouldn’t I do this? So that’s how I decided to do the podcast. The podcast is basically, essentially, I’ve tried to identify mostly millennials who are doing creative, innovative projects, nonprofit projects in arts and culture. So I’ve tried to find people who are innovating in nonprofit projects and having long interviews like we’re doing here today, to try and come up with themes, themes by which they are engaged and themes with which we can engage other people to continue giving to the arts. To be more specific, the baby boomers, you know, our generation basically. And of course, I’m talking about principally in the United States, which is the largest, the largest donor donor market is in the United States. What’s happened in the United States is we created a system which is really based on being accepted to an elitist club. It’s created as a social club. This is a social club where you’re chosen to be a member, you know, the most prestigious of let’s say the Metropolitan Museum. You know, people have to years and years of proving that they can give that they’re good. And then you are just like a member in a social club. Then you are asked to be a part of the social club and you’re belonging to that social club. And what you get out of it is determined by how much money you have and who you give. Yeah, millennials don’t like that. They do not like that. They do not want to be a part of an elitist social club. At least that’s what they say, you know, And it’s not true for everybody, basically. I believe in general. So there’s been several themes that have come out. So I’ve now done 36 podcasts. So it begins to be, I think it begins to. You can see themes, you know, themes basically they want to make the world a better place. I believe they want to make the world a better place.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Absolutely, and I believe that.

Scott Stover: And they really have. It’s particularly difficult for us in arts and culture because they do question why? Why should I give to arts and culture when there are people who have?

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Because there are other needs. Real needs. Real, real needs.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Food and shelter and all that?

Scott Stover: Yeah. So basically when we turn to arts and culture, the themes are like basically they want to address underrepresented communities.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes.

Scott Stover: OK, underrepresented communities.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): They want to see justice. They want to see fairness.

Scott Stover: You can integrate this in your cultural projects. So underrepresented communities, education. So education, I mean, I think among them, I mean there, I think there have been quite a few powerful podcasts that I’ve done. But you know, if I can think of one that comes to mind, I mean, I don’t want to say that it is excluding the other ones, but one is with Anuraganskaya. And she came, she said, actually we had to redo the introduction because after we did the podcast, she came, she called me maybe a week later or two weeks later. And she said, you know, Scott, I think I haven’t been sufficiently honest in that she’s a Harvard undergraduate, Harvard MBA, a very impressive young woman who I’m very fond of. And now we’ve become friends and she said, you know, I haven’t been completely honest. And she said I’d like to redo the beginning and we redid the beginning and she. She talked about the fact. She came, she and her family emigrated a Jewish family from Ukraine and emigrated to New York. And she in she, her mother enrolled her in arts education at Metropolitan Museum, which she did outside of school. And she said it completely changed her life and her attitude and what opportunities were available to her. So education, I think education in the arts really counts. So that and they also want things like millennials want the nonprofits to have autonomous income generating activities. So basically I think.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): They want something which is sustainable.

Scott Stover: Sustainable. And they don’t want, you know, basically they want the nonprofits to get out of this vicious cycle of having to constantly ask the wealthy for money, ask the wealthy for contributions. So they’re willing to give, the wealthy millennials are willing to give if they can also create a new revenue line for the nonprofit. This is a theme. They don’t want the nonprofit to only be dependent on donations.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): So we are talking about America, right? Yeah. So.

Scott Stover: But I think it’s similar now in Europe and one of the things that one of the things that.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I don’t think it applies in Asia.

Scott Stover: Asia, of course, you know I’m not.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Not in Asia applies. I think it’s changing, but I don’t think Asia applies and China gives for completely different reasons. But Hong Kong, among all the Asian countries, Hong Kong is the most generous.

Scott Stover: I know that’s the case and I want it.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Most generous and when we give here it’s not about tax deduction, there’s no tax and and tax deduction, but we because we pay very low tax. So we are very happy to give. I think it’s a very different way of.

Scott Stover: You know, I’m not sufficiently, I would like to know more about what drives Asians. And I think that’s something that I should add to my podcast actually. I mean, I do want to have, I do want to have a global approach. And you’re right, I should learn more about Asia.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): But America is the most important, it’s true, but in Europe it’s very difficult because of the socialist government system. Your tex is so high that everybody is expecting, you know, you’re being looked after by your government. So your schools, you’re talking about your health. Yeah, yeah. In Europe, your medical and every. So I don’t think people are more willing to give as much as it is in America or in Asia. Not Asia, I mean in Hong Kong or whatever.

Scott Stover: I think these are all complicated issues.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Of course it is.

Scott Stover: I was surprised, you know, and recently reading your interview in the FT you said correctly. I believe that good collectors exist when there are great museums.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): That was the quote that day.

Scott Stover: I think that’s correct. That is, and I think I think this is correct.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I think you know, when people are questioning it, Hong Kong now has the best has among the whole Asia. We have the best infrastructure.

Scott Stover: I think there’s a ways. I think there’s a way to go.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): And, it’s cultivating very good collectors. It’s.

Scott Stover: Beginning. It’s beginning.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): It’s the beginning. It’s, I think, I think it’s great groundwork and now we have a very healthy infrastructure, but.

Scott Stover: What interested me is then you went on to say that you thought that what was needed in Asia was more government support in order to create this necessary museum infrastructure, without which you wouldn’t have great collectors, which I agree. But what surprised me is, as you know, in the US we have almost no government support.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): No, Oh no, no, you only have one institution, right, With and with government.

Scott Stover: Yeah, Washington.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, yeah, Washington.

Scott Stover: But even that they have substantial.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Private then, but then when you have a totally private museum, you’re controlled by the trustees as well. That’s right. So I think you need to have this mixture of you know, you have, you have government support, but you also race and race and race is also not so, so good is if you have a government who try to control everything. So you need to have both I think.

Scott Stover: This, I totally agree with you that I think both are the healthiest environments and I’m among the people, people do not like it. And I have been quoted in interviews regularly that since you see, since the US, the federal government is providing a tax deduction, there is government support. It is in the form of a tax deduction. And I believe that we should have representatives from the public on the museum boards. And people do not like that, I say.

 Pearl Lam (林明珠): The museum would not like it at all.

Scott Stover: Of course not, but I have. I have been rather.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): You’re very radical, my.

Scott Stover: God. But as you know, it’s more the UK model. The UK model integrates public and private.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): No UK model is that the government does give money, yes and but they won’t get today especially they cannot give enough. So it will also depend on private raising.

Scott Stover: Money, absolutely. And the board includes people. They don’t only have people who are.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Wealthy people but living in the UK because of tax. You’re paying so much that people aren’t very likely to donate. So they raise money internationally. And of course they have the acquisition board everywhere. Yeah.

Scott Stover: Yeah. So I think I agree with you. I think that a private public model serves the public better. But it is clear that when you look at the US museums, if for some, yeah. And there it is, we’ve created extraordinary museums in the United States that do not have.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): And they’re so rich. Yes, every museum is so rich, but they also have very good corporate sponsorship.

Scott Stover: Which does not, it does not have the advantage of places like Paris, which has benefited from. People you know donating works of art, only of capital gains on the art.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): And also inheritance they can settle.

Scott Stover: With for the inheritance. That’s right.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): But in America as well.

Scott Stover: Paris, the institutions are so extraordinary as a result of all of the art that was collected there. And it’s basically when you’re impaired in paying inheritance taxes, they give it to the museum. So America hasn’t really benefited from that.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): No, America. Also, a lot of my friends, whoever died and they would, were settled with the artworks.

Scott Stover: Yes, but they also give during their lifetime, yes. And we’ve established this extraordinary museum infrastructure and it’s really been a private individual.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I mean, I mean they give during their lifetime because of our tax deduction.

Scott Stover: It’s not only the tax deduction. I don’t, no. I think the tax deduction counts, but I think people are motivated for a variety of reasons. So going back to the future, you said, do I anticipate that giving will decrease in the future? No. And what we’re seeing, you know, now, one of the reasons, of course, why I was interested in looking at the millennial and Generation Z attitude towards giving, is you know, we have this great wealth transfer that’s occurring. So in the next 30 years, there will be more than $1 trillion of wealth that will be transferred between generations. And I do believe that the arts will continue to be supported.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Don’t you? Don’t you feel that you know the way that a person starts giving back to society is actually being conditioned or being cultivated when you’re growing up, whether it is an education or whether it is an example that your parents or someone gives. So this is ongoing because of a general education.

Scott Stove: I resist thinking only that, but maybe unless you think in a larger way, let’s say, let’s, let’s imagine that someone who is from a very underprivileged background could have a generous mother who then teaches them about giving because they give. So if you look at it in that way, yes. But one of the things that has surprised me in the 36 podcasts that I’ve done is I don’t see a distinction between how the wealthy millennials who have inherited wealth approach giving from those who are self-made. So I would have anticipated there would be a real difference for instance.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): No, no.

Scott Stover: There is not a real difference. It’s a generational vision that is different.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I think the self-made would most likely give more.

Scott Stover: We don’t actually. We do not have data which distinguishes.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): If you look, I hope there will be some data coming out.

Scott Stover: You know, at the moment I’m trying to find sponsors to give to the arts report. I haven’t told you about that, no.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Can you, can you say maybe we have some audience we will sponsor Scott and on this data, please.

Scott Stover: Basically I know that I’ve done these 36 podcasts, I want to begin to put data. You know, data figures don’t lie. So, you know, this is we want to look at data and so I want to come out with a report where we get generational generational distinction.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): That is very important.

Scott Stover: I think so. So I basically.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Because without that, you can’t study and you won’t. You won’t have a full full comprehension of what is happening.

Scott Stover: So basically what I’ve done is I’ve structured a report and we, we want to, we want to conduct a proprietary survey to be able to distinguish generational attitudes toward giving. And basically the themes that I’ve been able to find out in the podcast will then be tested with the proprietary survey.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Today there is so much turmoil in the geopolitical situation like the US, China having this trade conflict and it’s getting so bad that it really affects America as well as China.

Scott Stover:  Absolutely.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): So what’s your take on that that affects all these other cultures?

Scott Stover: My take, basically, I have a different vision than most experts. I really, I suppose that as you’ve permitted me to have some understanding of China and to have close Chinese friends, which is not only you but other Chinese friends as well. And I, I really do not particularly with Chinese, I do not feel that there is an enormous cultural difference. First of all, the major traits of the culture are education and a meritocracy.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes, a meritocracy.

Scott Stover: And my interaction with the Chinese, they seem to have the same kind of framework than Americans. And something which is also practical. We are practical people. I really do not. I mean, I know I’m obviously wrong. I do not understand this conflict. The two economies are interdependent. They are interdependent, and the Chinese and the Americans are practical people. I do not see how they can be disconnected. This will not happen. Voila.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): But this is happening.

Scott Stover: And you see you. We are living with Trump today. You’re seeing how things can evolve dramatically, dramatically overnight.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): They change from one day to.

Scott Stover: Another which we did, which you did not anticipate and certainly it seems to me today that there is an enormous opportunity for China and we have. And recently the things that have happened, for instance, even even in terms of the business community, you have DeepSeek, which is all of a sudden.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): It is amazing.

Scott Stover: Completely shattered, you know, the dominance of US tech and BYD. You know BYD has just come out with this super battery. I mean, this world is integrated and there is this.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Opportunity that scored. You know how China is feeling and how Chinese is feeling today is we’re feeling being bullied, being bullied again because after 150 years of Western dominance, being a mean being bulldogsed at the time during the Qing dynasty, today China feel proud that we you know, there’s so much success on every different views and all of a sudden tariff. I mean, I mean, you know, we have seen Hollywood movies, Pin Ponting, you know, Chinese being the bad person, you know, all that thing going on. Of course, I think in China they feel they don’t feel well with all these conflicts going on.

Scott Stover: Who likes a bully? No one likes a bully. Trump is a bully. I don’t, you know, I don’t see, you know who, who would like being a bully.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I just, I believe this is how Chinese are feeling

Scott Stover: Well, I can understand that.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): So if you can understand that, you can understand a lot of reactions.

Scott Stover: I just, I do not believe that this will continue.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I don’t think so as well.

Scott Stover: I think, I think that and I think that the, the, these, these are the two most important economies in the world which offer each other something they cannot be.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): And I hope that can be art, culture will bring things together, absolutely bring the two countries together.

Scott Stover: Which is what we both have been working on.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Thank you, Scott, for spending this whole hour with me. And now I’m hungry. I have to go and eat.

Scott Stover: Well, thank you so much, Pearl.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Thank you so much.

Scott Stover: I might. I must say that you have been important to my life. You have, you have introduced me to a whole part of the world that I didn’t know, and without you as my guide, I wouldn’t know it.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Great. I mean, you have to explore more, come to Asia more. Thank you, Scott. Thank you for everything.