Pearl Lam (林明珠): Hello, this is Pearl Lam Podcast. I’m here in Copenhagen. I’m in this amazing; I don’t know whether it’s a restaurant or studio or theatre, I do not know. I’m with The Alchemist founder, chef Rasmus Munk and Rasmus I’m so happy I’m sitting here after visiting you, having your great food, great experience in last December. I thought we must have you at my podcast. Rasmus, I mean, there are people who don’t know about you. Can you give a brief about yourself?
Rasmus Munk: Yeah, I’m Rasmus Munk and I have the restaurant Alchemist in Copenhagen, which is what we call a holistic dining experience. It’s we also live in doubt ourself is a, is a restaurant or is it, can you say it’s art or like it’s at least an experience with a lot of different artistic fields involved in in the restaurant experience. But but mainly the character or main character of the of the evening is of course the food. But but I use what can I say my craft to, to have this medium of expressing myself with, with, with things I think is important in in society or, or things that inspire me from different food cultures and in that way provide the experience to the guest in the evening. So it’s a, it’s a restaurant with, with more rooms and an experience that can take up to 7 hours to, to enjoy some, some stay here for shorter and some actually for longer as well. So it’s a whole evening concept, yeah.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I am a foodie, I’m from Hong Kong. We are all foodies, but we have never imagined a restaurant like like this. So your idea of a restaurant is to touch all senses, right? Because it’s not just about food. It’s about how you look, how you feel and what ticks for you, you. But I remember when I, when I saw you in December, when we on the last thing when we were talking, you said that you didn’t even know about art. You were from a very remote place in a farm. And you only started to to know about art in your 20s. But how? I mean, how could you create these things? You conceptualise everything thing. Tell me about your experience. You’re growing up and.
Rasmus Munk: Yeah, I’ve grown up in a in a very humble place. My, my from on the farmer side in, in Jotland. So my family is without any cultural background. What? So not in food, not in music, not in in art of theatre. I never visit any kind of museums or theatres before I got older and so so I’ve never been exposed for any of that. What was very important for my my father was cars and like a different, different cars and more material things. And the house that we lived in used to be a good house and stuff like that and the garden. But but there was never anything like the how could you say the content in that? Like what was in the frame? It it didn’t really matter. So I think I got literally without any anything like over saturation, like I got maybe 5 different dishes when I was a kid And, and those five dishes and all of them included the boiled potatoes or rice. So it, it was quite limited to what I was exposed for. I never had fish before. I started as an apprentice to a chef. What? Yeah. So, so yeah. And, and every Friday I visit to McDonald’s where I was allowed to get the Happy Meal until I was first seen and then I was allowed to get a Big Mac. So, so it, it, it’s really have been very limited. And then one of my best friend, he went to the culinary school. I went with him because I, I love to be together with him. And and we was drilling in cars in our spare times and I thought I should be a mechanic and then.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): From a mechanic to a chef?
Rasmus Munk: Yeah, so I get went on the school and, and I saw, you know, a whole fish. I saw I never seen time before like the herb. And and there was there was many things where I was like, OK, this is this is quite crazy. And and I didn’t have any dream of being a good chef. I didn’t know anything about Michelin stars restaurants whatsoever. But I, I was just I, I came home to my mother and, and I was like felt a lack of something that was so essential as food. I was like, but there is all of this. Do you know about about these things? And I never question marked it like before. So I’ve never questioned like what kind of things we were served in the evening. But but I started doing that at at the time and I could just see there was so much I’ve missed out on and and something that’s so essential as food and food culture. I was like, OK, I need it probably will not hurt anybody if I go to the school and get learn how to cook, cook as well. So it was never been a dream about having my own restaurant or being a a good chef. I didn’t I, I thought if you become a chef, you become a chef and that’s everybody’s kind of the same. And of course, I learned a lot more to to enter this world. So I was very privileged that I, I choose and, and very lucky that the stars was aligned because I, choose the first and the best opportunity of being an apprentice in a restaurant, in a restaurant, in a canteen actually, which.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): In a canteen?
Rasmus Munk: Yeah, so it was my my my mother and and and stepfather was living on a on a hill and down in that like when you drive down on the hill and you came there was 2 houses that literally how small the littles is not even the city, but but the city before city. I don’t know what you call it an English, but village. Yeah, it it was that there was 3 houses. And when you drive down the hill, the first house nearby was, was taking over by a gauy from Copenhagen that just moved to, to this, this little place here. And, and he started the canteen like a catering company. So we delivered food to two canteens. And I went down there knocking on the door and asked if I could be a chef apprentice there. And he was like, would you peel these? I think it was 60 kilos of vegetables every day for three months. If you come and help me with doing that, we can look at it. And, and I did that there was easy like, you know, a task to do and then just to stand and doing it.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): What did your father say about not being a mechanic and being a chef? Not manly enough, being a chef?
Rasmus Munk: No, I think they were, they were OK. Most in our family and, and people we know is mechanics and, and like, so either either a biker in a biker gang or, or mechanics. So, so I think they’re OK as long as I got an education. So if they, they, they think it was OK. And, and yeah, I got, I was curious to get the get The Apprentice job there because he was from Copenhagen. He had been a head chef in some very good restaurants here. So he knew about and, and he was one pointing me in, in the right directions and start talking about it was more than just food, like Michelin stars and stuff like, but it was, it was still a canteen. It was for 300 people every day, the blacksmiths from a little city. So it was like, you know, good solid food. But but everything was made properly and my fundamental cooking skills improved and like and became as what I used today in many of many things as well. Like the fundamental was, was very good, but it was still a canteen. So when I came to the to the culinary schools, like a year later when I saw it, I get another like a ha moment because then suddenly all of these restaurant came with students. There was plating food and plates. I never played it on plate. I was also really always in buffets, you know, so, so suddenly to see that exposed me for this feeling again of a lack of something. So I went to my my, my apprentice place and I was like, I’ve not learned to do this. How can I learn to do this? And and he were he were very much but you’re so slow to cook. You’re so slow of me. You can only prepare a salad in eight hours, but you don’t question anything. You you don’t put any like success creature for yourself or like any ambition for yourself. And and after that I took that very serious what he said and and I started the day after to time myself. And suddenly I made all of the food for these two canteens. I started using all of everything. I started to look around and, and every opportunity I could, I got to work on other restaurants. I would do that in my spare time. So, so suddenly building up a lot of ego of learning and and I had never done that in my life before. So it, it also kick started a spark in me that wanted to always learn more. And I think that’s, yeah, they build it.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): And so, so you went to school and how long and how long is the course?
Rasmus Munk: This take nearly four years, yeah.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So after the course, and then you went to work with different restaurant or during the time you already jumped to working with different restaurant?
Rasmus Munk: Yeah, I I like the normal practice in the restaurant industry is to go on and train under a famous chef and train for 10-15 years and then you go out open your own thing. And I wanted to go and work for Thomas Keller in the States. I was a big fan. I have respect for food. And but the problem was I couldn’t speak a word English. I hadn’t learned any English at all.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): What age were you then?
Rasmus Munk: 18/19. So I filled out a form about getting a green card for the States and went to the embassy here in Copenhagen and I got declined 3 times because every time I was for the interview, the lady in front of me that was asking me all of this question, I didn’t understand what she was saying. I couldn’t get any help from my my parents because they didn’t speak English either. So it was, it was quite challenging. And, and at that part, UK was still part of Europe. London was, was the city that was easy to go to. You didn’t need any green card. So I decided to to move to London, worked for, there was a Danish chef that had a restaurant called North Road at Saint John St just near Saint John’s restaurant and in, in Farringdon. Yeah. And so, so they were writing on Facebook. We need to, we’re looking for Danish chefs to come to London. I wrote to him and, and there was only two criterias that you need to have worked in a Michelin restaurant and you need to speak English. And I was like, yeah, I can, I, I can do both. And I’ve, I’ve never worked in a Michelin restaurant before and I couldn’t speak a word English. I only worked in the canteen. So that was, I remember flying over there with Ryan Air, and, and there was in YouTube like how to fill in a Turbot, the Michelin way, because I could see they have Turbot on the menu. And I never fill up the Turbot before, only other fish. And I’ve eventually found out that it was exactly the same way to to fill it a fish in a Michelin restaurant in a canteen. So, yeah, and was there for nearly two years, learned the language and.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You were working there and speaking in English. You didn’t go to school?
Rasmus Munk: No I didn’t.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Because you have all the colleagues, colleagues, they all are speaking in English?
Rasmus Munk: Always in English. I was forced to it, yeah. And. And in the start it was quite easy because you had one trial day And, and as in in many kitchens, you don’t really say anything, especially not the first day. She just say, yes, chef and I, I could do that. So, so it was quite easy. Yes, chef and do what? What is to show me to do? So I, I got the job and yeah. And, and learn the language. So, so of course go small things in English, but but my, my English was, was quite limited at that time. Wow.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Two years and then you’re fluent.
Rasmus Munk: I wouldn’t say fluent, and I’m still not fluent in English, but yeah, I learned learned the way around and and and things in the kitchen. What was a cold and all of the equipments and all of these things ingredients as well. And there was amazing place to be in in UK because the ingredient was amazing. There was amazing cheeses from Neil Shard. There was lot of Scottish live ingredients coming in from clams to scallops to and it’s first time I ever seen like, you know, a live scallop, because these things you cannot get in Denmark. It’s very, very hard to get. So, so that wise it was, it was very amazing. And I came back from London and.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Why do you come back from London? You didn’t want to stay in London?
Rasmus Munk: The restaurant needed to close. Unfortunately, the the owner wanted to close the restaurant and the head chef left and I stood with the responsibility in the end and I was like, I’m not ready to operate. I think as a head chef maybe. And I’m, I was nearly as head chef there. I was the assistant head chef at in the end, but but I’m also tired and you know, it was, it was a very classical English cuisine, so very, very demanding. I was there from 8:00 in the morning to two at the night six days a week. It was, it was very, very tough. So I think I had very, I think it was, it was OK for me to, to have this time now. And now I’m going back to Denmark. But it was also amazing. I love London and I love, I love bigger cities and, and Copenhagen is, is probably the smallest big city that I could live in because it’s, it’s still big. But, but what I would surprise me when I came to London as well was, was this multicultural society. I’ve never seen, you know, I’ve never talked English when about before. So I’ve always in my city, you know, in, in the farmer side, it’s like everybody speak Danish, everybody knows each other or also knew the parents of the parents like it. It’s it’s very local community. And then come to London and and the shops is not closed 9:00 like you can go into and get a kebab and two in the night. It was crazy and it was amazing. So, so it, it cultivated me a lot as both as a professional, but also as a person. And then back to Denmark and I had this, what can you say? Struggling with myself. Should I be ahead? Like should have been in, in, in chef or sous chef under like a very famous chef for maybe 10 years, 15 years. And then I look at my age, I was still very relatively young, 21 years old. And I was like, yeah, but then you need to in 15 years when you’re 35 or something, you need to go out, maybe start your own thing. At that point I was like, maybe I will lose, I’ll be lost for energy at that point. So I was like, I was like, let me, let me start my like, let me be head chef somewhere myself and, and, and try to see if I can build up my own name and find my own direction. And and then I became a head chef in a restaurant called Treetop in in Jotland for two years, a hotel restaurant, which was like fine dining.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You you become a head chef when you’re in your 20s. My God.
Rasmus Munk: So it was also, what could say way too early probably and, and, and also a very echo of other things happening in, in the restaurant industry. So it was inspired. I, I could see how would you like when I looked at the famous restaurants in Copenhagen, I could see, OK, if you do this and this and this, you can, you are up to beat and you are modern as well. So it just ended up also being a lie or like, not that original. So I took myself in like after two years of being heads up there, talking with journalists and journalists and say that my mom was an amazing chef and I have been all my life wanted to be a chef because that was what everybody else was saying. And I found, found my inspiration and being in the forest and, and I’m, I’m grown up in the forest. I don’t find any inspiration in the forest beside that. I love nature and, and it, it, it was just so, so I have a charity that called Wish Christmas, directly translated was doing Christmas Eve for, for, for families needs. I started that after I came home from London because I, I had my Christmas Eve was like a, for similar project in London. And when I came back, I was like, OK, maybe we can do this in Denmark as well. And, and when I did this this Christmas Eve in back in 2000 and, and 14, I started the organisation in 2011. But when I did in 14, when I was a head chef in this other fine dining restaurant, I was like, this, give me so much more. It, it like it, it resonated with me so much more than actually cooking 100 hours a week for something that’s not that original. But I still love the fine dining element of creating things and be innovative and try to do your own things. So I I quit my job as a head chef there and then with the idea a couple of months later came with the idea and ambition of of creating a restaurant like Alchemist.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So Alchemist, you only open in 2019, right. So when did you actually? So you start that and and then after that?
Rasmus Munk: After that I opened Alchemist in a small version. I opened.
Rasmus Munk: Yeah, 2015, a small version?
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Small version. It’s not the 22,000 square metres, not at all. How big was that that?
Rasmus Munk: It was 100 square metres.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): 100 square meters
Rasmus Munk: In total with everything, kitchen, basement, everything. So we probably went from the smallest restaurant and companying into the biggest one. It was.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So when you open your small one, what sort of dish were you, were you cooking? Were you? Was it like what and what you’re offering now?
Rasmus Munk: Yeah, like slightly, probably a little bit more punk. It was more like me, just come with an idea and let’s put it on the menu and not that much research into it. I was not. I didn’t have a staff of 100 people and like equipment of millions. Like it was, it was, it was a smaller setting. It was 15 seats. We were five, yeah, 5 employees on our max. So we were four to start with. And and it was 45 dishes. So it was a long menu like a lot of small things. And you were sitting only one place. You were sitting in a bars. Well, inspired by New York and like Japan. So, so that kind of the counter seating so, so, and it was for me also to, to find my own way and, and, and I remember called up and journalist on the night at the open and he was like, but what is it you’re doing? Because it was very different from Noma and like Geranium and all of the other restaurants that was here in, in Copenhagen and it was not that new Nordic. So he was like, what is it is a molecular gastronomy like a elBulli and Fat Duck? And, and with the with, with a lack of knowing how to explain what I was doing. I was, yeah, it’s probably molecular gastronomy, but it was something different because I attached the stories to it. I used it more as a medium and one dish, there was, what can you say convince me that this is possible to do and this is possible and, and, and also made me comfortable in, in doing. It was like an organ donation dish where you had a lamb heart in front of you. You need to scrape out this hot tartare made of lamb heart. And it was poured like a blood sauce on top from a transmission back in and, and, and it signed up you then you, you gave a folder, and you could sign up to be organ donor at the same time. So we signed up 1500 donors in the restaurants and then we suddenly got attention from all of the local news but also BBC worldwide did a story about the dish and I was like if this little restaurant with five people employed here we’re not in any restaurant list we don’t have any Michelin stars or anything if we can do this for our medium then for me that was what I thought was very interesting so when we when I get my financial partner last involved in the project here and we agreed on building a bigger place and we closed the other one out. One of the things for criteria for me was that I had a couple of months to actually of course making all of the place and and that was will also be longer than two months. But I wanted the couple of months to put down on paper what were we actually doing and and what is the ambition for this place and that that became the more holistic cuisine.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So it was gradually evolving.
Rasmus Munk: Yeah.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): But your partner, your financier, I mean, so, so you and you tell him that OK, I want a restaurant of let’s say not not even 20 to 15,000 square metre. He trusts you. I mean, I mean, it’s really amazing if you think about it, you know. I mean, they say, OK, 20,000 square metres, 22,000 how many seats? Yeah.
Rasmus Munk: Right, only, only 50 seats.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, exactly.
Rasmus Munk: Small.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Restaurant, I mean small restaurant, 50 seats numbers. I mean, does your partner expect that hey, you know, you have 22,000 square metres. You have to make so much for for us or else you cannot turn around.
Rasmus Munk: I I think he’s, he’s not in it for, for creating a new he’s an old banker and I think he’s not for creating a new bank definitely. So he’s, he’s very he’s a big foodie as well. And and and a very philanthropist in in a way to to create projects like this. I think to and for his reason is to give it back to Copenhagen. He’s seen the last 20 years. We had like restaurants with Noma, Geranium. But if we need something in the future, we also need to invest in that. And and it’s not happening from from society to do it because food is not on the same level as institution like theatres themselves and so on. So, so, so that backing has been been amazing for me for the, for the restaurant and, and hopefully also for the city in the future because it’s generated a lot of gastro tourism here and, and to the city. So, so I, I see it as a very big gift that that is done for, for many people and not just for himself. And financially he know that in this meant it’s very hard to get get a return on because as you say 50 guests here at night and even that is expensive or it cost a lot of money to dine here. We use most of them on it.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Does cost a lot by the way.
Rasmus Munk: Machines and like 110 people just working here and so on. So it’s also cost a lot of money to operate this place, so.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You’re from a village, but when do you learn about art, culture, music? I mean, I mean you Do you know performance art? Your AI? How did you create this space?
Rasmus Munk: Yeah, that’s a good question. I I think it’s, it’s coming step by step as well as when we opened the restaurant in 2019 or like start building. And in 2017 to 19, I hired a a dramatic that was learning me all this terratic about like a theatre and how that’s operating and elements that you use and was very inspired by that. And the year after I hired the industrial designer to help us with with plates and understand more about the sign and so on. And my good friend Popiago, which have a killer gallery in, in the in the meat packet district, which now just moved, he was the one kind of like showing me different artists as well. Exposed me for people from unit 10 Mesa to Pierre Koebe to like to people. There’s, there’s very good at the craft and, and, and doing art, which is, which is amazing. So, and today I’m not a big connoisseur in art. I have a lot of art at home and I’m, I’m willing into it and, and I’m but I’m very eager on learning new things, especially also with AI and new technologies. How can we and, and with things that fit in where I feel like this resonate with me? How can we integrate that into the to the experience? I’m a I’m a big believer in, in things. I’m, I’m very, probably very naive in that way that I think I can change the world for a restaurant and but I have to kind of same naive belief that I can, I can do everything, everything is possible. And I think that’s, and when you have so strong belief on that, that I have, then you’re not afraid of putting 100 people every day on doing something that maybe many people will say this is ridiculous. So this is very naive and you will never succeed. And, and, and then sometimes it, it doesn’t. But, but when you, when some of the things do, then, then it is also, what can you say? Empowering emotion and feeling.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): But you have the imagination. I remember when you walked in, you said knowledge is, is is limited, but you have vast imagination. Even with your fast imagination, you create a vision, but you need people, you need confidence to execute it and you need people who believe in you. And you have two, 2 two things you have confidence and you have people believing in you. How did I mean how?
Rasmus Munk: It is good.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): And how do you what happened?
Rasmus Munk: I also surround me with with better people than myself in in different fields. I I know my limitations, as I said with with a public school background and just directing…
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You are directing the whole thing.
Rasmus Munk: Yeah, yeah, for sure for sure, but, but, but also get very inspired by by by others and, and, and I think like that’s that’s the amazing team like woodworking with such a big team as well and so much diversity. And then when my industrial designers show me this new metal that’s like connecting when you heat it up. And then we we certainly design a cutlery that’s going together when you get in your hands and eat and then it’s impossible to take it like these. These elements inspire me to do things and when my scriptwriters coming with a quote from Albert Einstein about to our new room, that imagination is more important than not. It’s like so, so these things is what can you say resonate with me or and I’ll take it in and then I maybe come back with some other things or add on to it. But but, but it’s, it’s a way. So so that’s that’s also the hard part of of this journey. I think like sometimes I’m I’m cultivating in its meanwhile, we’re driving, we’d like we these days. I try to find a direction as well. And and I think I’m very on cultivated in many ways. So it’s it’s, I think it’s a gift in many ways to explore things and just dive into it. But also sometimes I feel like it’s a limitation because I think like if I knew a lot more about this or this or this, maybe there will come something out of it. So so there’s a lot of things to that, like suddenly get getting very inspired because it’s the first time I see it or.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You know, I never heard a restaurant who employs industrial designer, industrial designer, graphic designer and all these videography. I think you’re the only one.
Rasmus Munk: I think I think we’re probably the only restaurant in the world that’s so diverse in the teams and have them full time here. Like that’s the thing we have. We fix artists, graphic design, the sound engineers, dancers and.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): And performance artists.
Rasmus Munk: I think when you’re all of them have them in the same house and you want to create like a dish or like you want to have this, we’re working on a dish right now where you, where you take, when you try to grab the food, the dish will move away like so the plate will move away. Like, I mean, like when you have a concept about that and you want to do it and you can just call your engineers like, Oh, let’s try to do that. And your industrial designer can make a frame out of it and you can treat the printers things yourself in house like so. So it’s also from from idea to creating it. It’s it’s a smaller journey than probably many other restaurants, in a word. So that also make it a very creative environment to be in.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You come here, you have 50 experiences. So we don’t talk about 50 dishes, we talk about 50 experience because you are talking about senses. So your eyes, your fragrance, your taste. So what makes you feel that senses are more are so important because you are chef. Chef is supposed to just taste, but you are talking about senses as a whole.
Rasmus Munk: Yeah, I think the experience that what, what you, what you feel when you see things like when you see a painting or when you see a dish or you, you interact with it or like that, that, that feelings, that it, it, it creates, it creates emotions. And I think emotions is the most important. So I’m also saying to the chefs and to our front of ours, we’re not selling like we’re not selling food. We’re selling stories, we’re selling experiences that that’s, that’s what what Alchemist is about. So.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I remember when I came here I ate a tongue.
Rasmus Munk: Yeah.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Tongue. I mean your imagination. I mean you have a piece coming up with a tongue. Your tongue. And then and then you look at it, it’s the tongue you’re eating. I’m all that in there. It’s so surreal. I know you know surrealism now it’s very hot, but eating all your dishes is surreal.
Rasmus Munk: Yeah. No thank you. You create…
Pearl Lam (林明珠): All these impressions, but there was one dish she was just licking onto the I could not remember, but I mean, but it’s completely crazy. I mean, you have an imagination you created dish and all your team which help you to to actually make it into make it into an object, make it into something that that you taste. So, so actually is you’re creating something that you see, you smell, and you taste.
Rasmus Munk: Yeah, I think, I think there’s a lot of layers into it and, and, and some of the dishes is more than just the food itself is like a story or something the happening in society or where I think it’s important to talk about. But but also dishes can be just a smell. It can also be just a texture, also a travel or some some inspiration from there. We have an example on a dish we just made the other week, which is this machine I bought some some years ago, which is like kind of a sous video many but knows the sous video, but this one is the opposite. So this is like a freezing instead. So it’s going to go down to -55 Celsius and use it in different lab around the world. And, and we have not really found way to do it yet. But my, my belief was to make the perfect ice cream. I love ice cream.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Me too, I love ice cream.
Rasmus Munk: And could you like the texture is coming out of ice cream machine when it’s freshly spinned, that texture is is the most amazing.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): The smooth texture.
Rasmus Munk: Yeah. And then you, you not a soft ice, but, but when you, when you make a classic vanilla ice cream example on these Italian ice machines, when it come directly out is the best. Like the texture is amazing. But then chefs put it in boxes and you need to serve it in the evening and, and you like what, what could this water bath, this freezing? Could that keep it on exactly the same temperature? And then you gave it directly to the guests. So it doesn’t, it doesn’t load any. It had this magical feeling and that that was the pitch to, to the chefs to say, create me the best ice cream you have the recipe on. And then we take it from there and we try to juice this temperature and you try different varieties of temperatures and find out what is, what’s the best temperature to serve it in. And, and then, then we get feedback twice a week on, on the dishes and the plates and, and the, the music and the, the content. And so see.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You’re doing music and the content and but you never have a background for it. It’s just pure interest.
Rasmus Munk: Yeah, I think I also like we have the theatre department now, which is has been been here since 2019 and we scaled it out of like we hired more people to it and, and in the start I didn’t know anything about that. But beside I’ve seen a lot of Disney movies and, and, and so, you know, like I, I and I’ve seen different things and exposed for different things. I had a what imagination of like how I I thought it will, it will look. So it was more to translate that to to the guys doing it at and and say this is how I want to look and to now where for now we had the department for for for some years. I really I’m very interested in so know exactly what programmes that are using now. How do you build up a universe like this? What kind of materials to do? How long time does it take to render to different things like a gaze rendering mistakes everywhere. Now is, is a problem, but, but like this. So, so I really put myself into it and, and, and find out because then when I know more about it, I can, I can challenge it and like, ask why are we not doing this And why are we not trying to do this? Is this not possible to do? And sometimes it happens that we are then doing something. There’s there’s new and innovative. So probably more like a director of yeah of an artistic show. Yeah, than than than just a chef. And I don’t, I don’t neglect to be a chef because I think it’s amazing craft. I love to eat in restaurants. It’s more classical.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): But you’re also putting AI in it, yeah.
Rasmus Munk: Now there’s AI in the experience as well, Yeah.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, OK. What do you think about sustainability? How do you link sustainability into food culture?
Rasmus Munk: Maybe try much as the things that we’re doing to express different certains about different things. Like we have our guilty pleasures, which is talking about the chocolate industry that we crave way too much chocolate. We, we, I mean, just, we love chocolate. Everybody loves chocolate. That unfortunately the production can’t, can’t follow when that speed that we that we crave it. So, so it’s, it’s compromising a lot of things like working conditions, so child labour, deforestations and that there’s a lot of problem. But with that industry, because it’s so big. So how can you maybe how can we communicate that here we had this guilty pleasure, which is like a a little chocolate bar with facts about the chocolate industry on the backside for the and information come from UN to one of the most most sustainable curated chocolates. And it’s not to point any fingers. It’s just to say that you need to when you when you eat things and when you take it, you you’re making an active decision as well. So you need to think about it to plastic in the oceans, which is a dish with like a cut jaw. Your addition, I think was like a place fillet and then it’s with the top with edible plastic and you need to consume the plastic like the fish do, because there was a report from Danish Technology Institute and 1/3 of all Danish cut was filled with microplastic inside. So so we served this edible plastic on top of that and, and, and in that way convey a message. Yeah. And I think that’s, that’s been a very in the start, I was afraid of people would just say, yeah, it’s fine and it tastes really good. And then but but it’s, it’s, it’s quite unbelievable. Like how many does like every week crying when they hear like and it’s more than one time a week that people cry and like it resonate with them. They send me emails after that. This chains to we want food or from now on when they buy chickens, they will only buy the organic ones because we have a chicken food like so so it it’s it seems like when people interact with it as to do and they need to digest it, it it kind of resonate with them stronger maybe than seeing a documentary about it, of course, because you experience it yourself. I’ve been very surprised how much is actually move gets them. And in the start I was like they they just saying it to be polite, but now it it’s so many people have stories about this. The say that it changed them and and changed the way that they’re thinking about food in the future. And I think that’s that’s interesting which you look at.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): That’s important as well.
Rasmus Munk: It’s very important, yeah. And of course this restaurant is, is very, what can you say, humble. And that was it’s 50 guests at night. We can maybe have 10,000 guests through the years that we will be open. So do we do a impact there? But then I think things and projects that we’re doing and that’s also why it’s important for me to do projects that’s beyond the restaurant. So we’re doing a charity for homeless. Can we do spore our initiative for food technologies and where we have just found a way to create a rape seed cake, which is the press when you do canola oil, we found the technology of of creating that into to human feeds, which potentially can cover the protein need for 800 million people’s life. So if we can, if we can suddenly take some of the innovation and creativity that is in a restaurant like this and then scale it up to millions of people, then I think I think it’s it makes sense to have a restaurant like that then.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): After, after I ate your food and I was saying that why aren’t you getting your three stars? Why is it only two stars? Then I was discussing with some friends and my friends were saying that because people at the Michelin Star, they won’t understand what you’re doing because you’re touching too many senses. You’re not focusing on food because they’re very traditional. They just want to see food, not so many things going on and and it’s very complicated. Do you agree with them? Because I think your food is really good.
Rasmus Munk: No, thank you so much. I mean, these, these people ask me like, why don’t you have three stars? And, and, and there’s people who say like, like your friends saying that is because they’re too traditional. I, I don’t think so. I think they have embraced creativity through Michelin’s history. Like elBulli had three stars. Fat Duck had three stars and stuff like that have three stars so so I think they have Noma have now three stars, but two stars for quite a long time.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, but elBulli is very different because it’s just about food.
Rasmus Munk: I think there was element. I’ve never been to elBulli, but I think there was element in it. There was also maybe provocative in a way, like maybe not in the.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): It’s irregular at the time. You never have that. But it’s food. But yours is not just taste of food or look, look, it’s all that experience. Yeah. And I don’t think any chef has used food food to use food as a social commentary.
Rasmus Munk: No, not, not that we know of. And I think that’s what’s been unique and maybe there is elements in that this it’s not resonating. But initially, I don’t know. I also think it’s a time thing. We were previous to get two stars directly in, in 19. That’s the first restaurant in Denmark to do that. And and to get the first star. I mean, it took, I think Noma took over, I don’t know, 16 years or something. It was a long journey to get that. And yeah, they had they had only two stars like for I think they got the third one here in 2018.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So late?
Rasmus Munk: Late 20 or something like 21 or something. Yeah, it was under Covid actually.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): But but Noma was known to be the number one restaurant in the world.
Rasmus Munk: So I think, I think maybe they are more, I don’t know, lean back in a way of of saying, okay, we need to see for for these types of restaurant, there’s maybe pushing the boundaries a little bit more than traditional ones. Like maybe they need to see more time of consistency and and so on before they give the three stars is an ambition. I would love to have it. I would love to have it for my guest and because they asked me a lot like why don’t you have the three stars? I’d love to have it for the team’s sake and and personally also.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Is it important?
Rasmus Munk: I mean, it, it depends what perspective personally, yes, I would love to have it because it’s it’s what can you say? It’s the Oscar recognition. Yeah, it’s a recognition. It is Oscar of gastronomy. And and when you when you use so many hours on this and you you really care about the cooking as well. And, and you think it’s amazing yourself. And then our price level and so on and our ambitions with what is invested in it. Of course that on in a, in a three star category ambition. There’s 150 restaurants in the world that have three stars. So so I would like to be one of them. And we compare ourselves with them normally on many other things. On the other hand, it’s it’s a customical guide would say, I think what we do here is more than just gastronomy. And, and if, if there’s something in the guide that’s making it impossible for us to get because it’s, it have a criteria that you cannot dance with a performer or you cannot get a dish where you, where you don’t like it, because that’s also a part of it. We want to make sure that there’s at least one dish you maybe don’t like or maybe it’s a little bit out of your comfort zone. Otherwise, I don’t think we succeed. And, and if that’s one of the criterias, then then we will probably never get it. And I will not change it for anything for because then I’m, I will accept that, that that doesn’t resonate with them, but I would, I would love to have it. And, and I think we, we, we deserve it. And, and when they have three the, the, the, what can you say? The phrase they have for getting a first star is that is worth travelling for. And if you look at our waiting list since we opened, so now over 1,000,000 people from all around the.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): World oh God, it’s so difficult to.
Rasmus Munk: I mean, that’s, I think proof that is at least for that criteria. So I hope one day that they will, they will recognise the team and ask for it. But I will, I will not change anything to to get that. And I think we could have done things that will be easier for ourselves, you know, serving more food that we were sure there was not anybody that will hate ingredients. We will not, maybe not hang a pigeon in front of you, remember, not ask somebody to kiss with a silicon tongue and so on. Then it would probably be be, I don’t know, easier to get it. Yeah.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, and I never seen a restaurant with a mood board. Mood board. Mood board a lot.
Rasmus Munk: A lot of mood boards.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I mean, why would you? I mean, how do you think about using a mood board to create a restaurant?
Rasmus Munk: Yeah, I think a lot of times we in a in a situation where a lot of the things that’s in my head with I’m I’m, I think I’m very, I have a clear vision. I have a clear pictures of many things. When I talk about a dish or when I talk about new content, I have a in my imagination. I have exactly how this supposed to look like, what colours, what like and I think a mood board and many times to show it, show different references and so on. It’s it’s a good way to to work. Many of this year is for the industrial science team and the studio team as well.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Rasmus, you talk about when you were young, you were very, very enticed by the planetarium. So you create this Dome, Dome look, Dome like restaurant. Was it difficult?
Rasmus Munk: It was it was quite difficult. We, we got a lot of different, we got a couple of quotations from companies in the States was travelling around the world and doing these domes, but that was, that was, that was way too expensive. And I was like we, we can probably do this ourselves. So visiting a lot of planetariums, especially the one in Copenhagen took a lot of pictures of how that was that was done. And then we got my uncle, who is a blacksmith to, to build this. But when we have done everything up and we put the first projector on, we could see that for some of the ankges there was like gaps and shadows. And then it, I realised when I was thinking about it, that in a planetarium you have kind of the same direction. You have the same viewing direction into the screen and, and here in the restaurant you had 50 different views to it. So it was, it was a, it was a long breath and, and, and try to, to navigate in what to do. We tried some different, different things with paintings and stuff like that to see if it was possible to not tear everything down again, but nothing really helped. And it’s probably one of the decisions I’m most happy about have done today because I could imagine myself being like sad with the with the result everyday if I had to just kept on building. So we we actually teared everything down and we started all over again. It delayed the building as time before months.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So. So you delayed the whole opening?
Rasmus Munk: So when I, I, I sent the e-mail, it was a Saturday evening. I remember so clearly that we needed, I said to my, my uncle, you need, you need to drill all of it down again and to, to, to put it in a context. There was 25,000 screws and they needed to go out again. There have been four guys doing that for for nearly a month. And when I told him he, he was literally like crying. He was so sad and he was like, I don’t know if I can do it again. So, so we needed a little bit of convincing, we got a good red wine and and a good burger. And then he was, he was off for it again. But we need actually he’s two helpers didn’t want to do it again. So we need to find two other helpers to do it, but it was a night because you need to drill everything down and you need to put it up again. And then we, we started to, to figuring out how to, to do this and, and don’t have any gaps of shadows and so on. And I’m very happy I did. But it was, it was also a very tough e-mail to send to my partner and, and also send it to, to all of the, the like contractors because they were ready to the day after that weekend to come in and do the flooring and everything and sit everything on hold. There was, it was. It’s a tough, tough one to do, yeah.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): What an experience.
Rasmus Munk: Yeah.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Bravo. Very enlightening. Thank you Rasmus. This is such a great, great section with you.
Rasmus Munk: Thank you.
