Pearl Lam (林明珠): Hello, this is Pearl Lam Podcast. Today I’m in Shanghai. I am sitting here in this wonderful studio, Qiu Anxiong Studio. So today it will be very interesting because there was a time when Chinese contemporary art dominated headliners, auctions and international biennial. Today the conversation is different. The geopolitical climate has shifted. Western institution appears to be more cautious. In United States, the attention has often turned to American born Chinese artists rather than those who live in mainland China. So we have to ask, is Chinese contemporary art in decline or are we witnessing a deeper structural shift? How cultural power is distributed. During Art Basel Hong Kong, I have now joined by Qiu Anxiong, an artist whose work is deep rooted in Chinese ink philosophy. He transformed traditional ink into cinematic world through myth and ecological crisis. He maps fragility of civilisation. His work feels ancient, but it’s very urgently contemporary. He’s widely collected by institutions and in the West. And I also want to mention is I was the first to bought Qiu Anxiong’s first video. So I’m very, very proud that I’m sitting with him today. And another person I’ve invited whom I have respected greatly and we have been collaborating quite some time is curator David Chan. David, who’s a Hong Kong based curator whose work critically examined contemporary art in Asia. Beyond market cycle and geopolitical noises, his work navigates history, identity and shifting of cultural power. What is most important is he brings intellectual precision to the evolving narrative of Chinese art, of Chinese contemporary art. Together today we want to discuss and explore the centre of gravity. Whether the centre of gravity in contemporary art has quietly moved or shifted and who will define its future. So first question need to discuss with you all is we all know we were all here and in 2000s Chinese contemporary art was the most sought after art globally. So I need to ask you now whether that enthusiasm is actually a genuine intellectual engagement or temporary infatuation or speculation?
Qiu Anxiong: How to say? Yeah, in that time, I think and your experience. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, of course, yeah. That’s the really like a booming of Chinese contemporary art in the global art circle. And yeah, even every biennial and every.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Every Biennial you have a Chinese artist.
Qiu Anxiong: Chinese art.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): If you don’t have a Chinese artist
Qiu Anxiong: You’re not a biennial fashion or some wave. But in that time, as artists, we think we got the benefit of that and we have more opportunity to join the international exhibition.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): And all the curators, they all come to China to look at artists, to find the artists to do it. I still remember your train. The train, what is the name of that?
Qiu Anxiong: Staring into Amnesia.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, that train which is in the Art Unlimited in Art Basel. This long, long train. And each of the window you did these short clippings of videos.
Qiu Anxiong: Documentary of the history, history code the country. And my animation makes them.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, the history animation. Because you always like to use history animation because you use your ink brush to create animation. And each of the window was these screens and there were queues in the Art Unlimited. They all wanted to go in. It was a big thing. It was on every newspaper.
Qiu Anxiong: In that time. It’s my highlight.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Very more than sign that time.
Qiu Anxion: I just think, okay, we just started but you know, I never thought it’s ending. It’s not already ending, but it’s a turn point in that I think, okay, I just starting my international way and.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, but you’re educated in Germany so you should be able to understand how and how in the west they are thinking.
Qiu Anxiong: No, no, no, I’m not really guess what they think also I’m not really care about that. And when I studied in Germany I already realised something I can do. I cannot do as the European or as a German to develop my art as a German, as a European Western people or just follow the Western art history. In that time I realised I should do something related with China, with Chinese history, with Chinese art. So that’s what I learned.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): But you use your ink brush to actually review or even teach the west about Chinese history.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah, but we in China also we taught with Western.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes, we all learn about Western history.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah, we have the. We know both sides and But. But when I study in China, I’m more, you know, inspired or very excited by Western contemporary art. It’s so, you know, for young people more attractive. But when I really are living and study in Europe, in Germany, I realised that’s not my root is not there, it’s in China. So that’s what I study there. Most important thing for me. So, yeah, we just talk about. Immediately after my graduation, I just come back to China.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Okay, so now, short question. Do you think Chinese contemporary art today is in decline or do you think that the cultural power is actually redistributed?
Qiu Anxiong: Yes or no. And yes, it’s. Yeah, but all the, you know, it’s not as hot as before and it’s coming to. I think it’s a normal level.
Qiu Anxiong: And less. Less opportunity to show in international exhibition. Yeah. For me, before the 2010, most of my exhibition overseas, but after that it’s more in the civil.
David Chan: Yeah.
Qiu Anxiong: In China.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So. So. Okay, so now, do you think that in 2000, when they were collecting your. your art, is it because of. Because it’s cool to have a Chinese artist or they actually intellectually engage with your art?
Qiu Anxiong: I think both of them. And yeah, there’s a. I have the benefit of the Chinese artist, the identity. But still, they also think is your art is good or not, or is valuable for them. For example, the Met and the MoMA collect my works. I think it’s.
Qiu Anxiong: The video, the new books. Of the new books. Yeah. And see, and the video and the woodcut, the graphic and. But I think the content for them is unique because you cannot find another artist doing something like me. So I think that’s very important for the choice.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): David, you know, you are there, you were there. We were all there. We see, we met. I think I met all the museums and curators, trustees. They were all visiting. And at the time you must have met all of them. Do you really think that at the time, you know, Chinese art was so cool, do you think that they were collecting it because they loved art or because you have it? I must have one. What do you think?
David Chan: I think that the engagement was genuine. You know, there was curiosity as to what’s going on in China.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Is it an infatuation?
David Chan: I don’t think it’s infatuation. I think it’s genuine engagement. And they were curious and. And I think it’s a very nice moment, actually. I think also for us who are curators and artists. I’m not artists, but we really went through this mode of tremendous production. We just keep producing things. Right. And I think that was very important to go through that process, to know, okay, you make these things and then.
Qiu Anxiong: You put it out there.
David Chan: It’s not only creating spectacle but you know, now you think about really a lot about engagement. How do you have the art to create engagement with the public? That took time in China, you know, at the time I think it felt early 2003. And then we were just.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): It was early, it was early, it was early and people was getting really excited because there’s so many international curators, museums nearly every month, every year, you know, non stop visiting and trustees and every. And this. What is nice is it gives all the artists such opportunities. Right. They would have never fought.
David Chan: I think that validation was also important. The fact that, you know, like the fact that first thing first. I mean, we have a very good kind of late 90s also there’s few really important exhibitions. You look at inside out, cities on the move. You know, there’s a show on conceptual art even as early as 93, the silent energy at Oxford, MoMA, curated by David Elliot. You know, like all these were actually already, you know, the authorship of Chinese art. Even doing, you know, inside out was given back to Chinese curator to write about. So I think they’re really. That the interest from the west has allowed us on this side to actually come to terms the history first and foremost, first thing first. And then you have the basis to move on, you know. So I felt it was genuine. Definitely genuine. You know, I mean, market is market and speculation. Speculation. It’s not something that we care about as Ikea box curators.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Of course not.
David Chan: Because I think that the point. Point is that to make use of.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I should be caring about.
David Chan: But you know. Yeah.
Qiu Anxiong: In that time, how to say this booming of Chinese contemporary art also I never, in that time, I never thought about a market. I just doing something crazy, you know, I completely have no idea of the market.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Which is fantastic. This is the best.
David Chan: So.
Qiu Anxiong: But we benefit of that. The market is very hard because we got more money and it can support us to do something crazy. You know, after that, you know, I never, I can’t. There’s no chance to do the train project.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): The train was amazing.
Qiu Anxiong: But it’s crazy. It’s crazy after that, there’s no opportunity to do that.
David Chan: I agree to you from my side the same at the time we’re building this. I mean absolutely crazy. We didn’t.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah, we just.
David Chan: We just built these things and we didn’t know what was going on. I think also same thing in Beijing is the same, right? The train is the same. You know, we’re just like, let’s try and see. And then. Okay. And then we kind of went through.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): That no, because I think the best time of those days is there’s no boundaries. Because everybody was so new, everybody’s very young. Everybody just come out and try to do something. They don’t know the limits. And that was unlimited.
Qiu Anxiong: Unlimited.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Everybody said, okay, if we fail, fail. Okay. And also things are not costly, they are inexpensive. So you can allow to make mistake. Today everything is a different price level, right? So today your mistake is very expensive at the time. Come on, small mistake is okay, you can afford it.
David Chan: I mean, at the time, do we really care so much about institutions? Yes or no?
Pearl Lam (林明珠): No, I think institution you care because it’s your pride. Someone is visiting, you know, someone visiting. I think, you know, I didn’t care about whether it’s selling or not selling. The art market for me is completely irrelevant. It’s just that now become. While the rental is expensive, it’s completely different, a different thing. Okay, so let’s talk about next thing. The last five years, we actually do not have a lot of Chinese exhibition in the west, whether it is institutions or even galleries. And we were thinking, is this because of geopolitics that has caused this happen? And then we ask to what extent has this impact of geopolitics has created that institution in the west is hesitant to engage Mainland voices, Mainland Chinese voices. What do you think about it? David, I’m going to ask you first.
David Chan: I think there is always that concern. I think geopolitical tension is something that changes by the day.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Do you think that this is caution or do you think that this is exclusion? Quietly excluding artists from Mainland? Because you see, even the last 10 years, most of the artists that the west support is actually China based. They like artists that is politically criticising China, right? And last five years, except those artists left, there’s really. There’s not much artists that they want to push or they want to promote. They are hesitant to give Mainland artists a voice. So are we. Is this institution in the west trying to exclude these artists or they are working very, very cautiously, I feel.
David Chan: Well, you look at it right, I mean, maybe not established artists, but younger artists. They are actually artists from Hong Kong.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Hong Kong is now China.
David Chan: Hong Kong is part of China, right?
Pearl Lam (林明珠): No, Hong Kong artist speaks very differently.
David Chan: Right, right, right. And I think also, you know, you see, even recently, I think now there are a lot of younger artists from Mainland who are actually educated abroad. And they also. They are in the.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): They like to stay abroad.
David Chan: They’re also in the commercial system and also like even some institutions start to show them. So I Think the situation is actually very, you know, obviously you talk about, you know, really blue chip mainland, big name artists. They have actually shown a lot already, you know, in the west, you know, so I can’t speak for institutions because I think they also have their own constraints and agendas, you know. But I feel that, that are we.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Have a really big constraint on agenda. It’s also because budget.
David Chan: Budget, right.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I mean it’s very hard to do a show today, a Chinese show, a Chinese artist show, and raise money, fundraise.
David Chan: And also make ensuring our audience.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I can understand that, you know, so, so, you know, we have to talk, talk about the overall situation because in Europe it’s different. In America you need to fundraise and in Europe is basically government funding. But even with that, I think the last one I saw was Tsai Ko Chang in Pompidou. But Tsai Ko Chang is, I don’t even see him as a Chinese artist. He’s American based and all that. So what are we talking about? Are we saying that Chinese artists today has a limited chart? You were just saying that after 21.0 you have much less opportunities.
David Chan: Can I actually come in? Yeah. I think the important thing for institution to be interested in doing a show and supporting artists is that the basis is that the artist must create great works. And we have, I think increasingly you see that they’re very good artists, very savvy with technology, you know, from China. And I think they also, if given time they would get into the institution.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah.
David Chan: And I think especially use of technology, I think on this side it’s actually quite amazing. A lot of artists are using technology recently. You know, the show at Dai Bun is really looking at, you know, framing in Hong Kong, looking at a lot of Chinese artists using technology, you know, and then the, the show is called Navigating the Cloud. As if they have that kind of open space to create something that’s really, really original. And it’s a kind of, you know, it’s not only current works, it’s actually work date back to last 10 years. So I think, I think it’s a very good kind of situation. You know what I’m saying, in short, is that the most important thing to get institution interested is to make sure that we have a good infrastructure here to support artists to do good work. If you have good work, the institution will be interested. You know, that’s how I kind of see it. You know, it’s very hard to, you know, to talk about the institution because given their constraints, I think for Institutions, a lot of institutions, they are fighting also ensuring that they have enough audience space. And I think this is very difficult right now.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Given order given is. I mean, when I go to America, of course now African heart is very. It’s. It’s the hottest thing.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Especially, you know, but especially with diversity, you know, women artists. But with Trump coming in. So I don’t know whether this diversity is still okay or not. But of course, you know, we artists about communication, we have to celebrate in all different civilisation and all different culture. That’s what it is. It’s about a cultural dialogue. But one point is because you see so many Chinese exhibitions and all of a sudden it wired up. So it’s very obvious what is going on.
Qiu Anxiong: I think it’s the change always happened. You cannot always stay in the central. So things get changing. And another side is also. You mentioned the geopolitics.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, Geopolitics.
Qiu Anxiong: Geopolitic reason. Yeah. Now the China and United States have little bit, you know, competition and the conflict.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Politics is such a big thing. It’s really a big thing.
Qiu Anxiong: And also I can. Yeah, I understand that. You know, it’s just like a neighbour, they just.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): They like to fight with each other.
Qiu Anxiong: They fight with each other and they don’t speak with each other for some days.
David Chan: But so much more, I think art becomes important because art is not about communication. You know, art is not about China or us or art about Europe. It’s about, you know, voices, you know, and voices are, you know, it’s part of humanity. And then so much more when their tensions. Art, you know, the use of art as a language to communicate and to find commonality is more important than ever before, I find.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah, yeah.
David Chan: You know.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah, yeah. I think before the globalisation is mainstream, but now is this global. So everybody want to just build the wall. And I think also it’s also reflected on the culture side.
David Chan: I think it’s more kind of multipolar now. It used to be. And globalisation actually is like we all are in it somehow part of it. But now it’s a multipolar world. So I think there’s a lot of reconfiguration going on in relation. I think it’s very important. I think, for instance, the modernity. Say here, can we compare this modernity to somewhere else modernity? Can we find similarity and differences? And then I think also increasingly we also need to find out our own history, you know, how do we position that, given what’s going on, you know. So I think there’s a lot of kind of work, curatorial work and going on also art historical kind of vision going on. You know, how do we look at art right now? What is visual art? What is visual culture? You know, art in itself also has changed. You know, the definition of has changed tremendously. You know, so yeah.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So attention, focus is always about American, American born Chinese. So one big question is, are they trying to filter the voice of mainland Chinese through diaspora framework or. Because it doesn’t seem that, you know, some mainland Chinese work which does not fit the voice of what the global voice, they want to filter it. Is that what is happening?
David Chan: For me, I think, yeah. For me, Chineseness is not only here, it happens in everywhere. And I think, you know, like, be it the diasporic, the artists living in the diaspora or, you know, American Chinese artists, they, you know, a lot of them, they also have Chineseness in them. You know, they also go back and look at calligraphy, they look at landscape, you know, so for me, you know, Chinese contemporary, obviously you can look at it, you know, it’s a very broad thing, you know, it’s something, you know, very, you know, it. We travel, we are fluid. You know, you start to think about ancestry. Probably our ancestors also, they, they went to different places. So that, that notion of Chineseness is something that is really, really broad and very rich. And it’s time to go to, for people to come to terms. I mean, for a lot of Asian or Chinese American artists, they’re also coming to terms with that somehow, but yet they find a tie and then relate to what’s going on in say, America. For instance, Bernice Bing, the artist, right? Yeah, obviously she was taught by Demon Korn, but also she have a soft spot for Chinese kind of landscape painting, of course, you know, so I think the articulation is that it’s not what, you know, footing through the diaspora, we are all part of it, we’re all in it forming this kind of idea.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I consider Hong Kong as a diaspora. Yeah. Because, you know, Hong Kong education, culture is completely different from mainland. I remember, you know, when I first came here, it took me 10 years to become Chinese. I had no idea about Chinese culture. Zero. I couldn’t understand most of the things because what we taught is not what we. It’s completely different. Yeah. So, okay, as a Chinese artist, a Chinese contemporary artist, when you travel abroad, so they call you Chinese contemporary artist, right? Do you think this is an empowerment or do you think you are being confused, fight? Or do you think that, you know, Chinese contemporary, what do you think about that? Because I Always think that art is not about a passport. So to put a Chinese Indian I think is so reductive. And also when you see a Chinese contemporary artist, so when they look at your work, do they read politically before they read poetically? What do you think?
Qiu Anxiong: I think the Chinese contemporary artist, this identity for me, as before, I think it’s a good, he’s empowered of me. But now I think it’s the. But it’s fair enough. It’s fair enough.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I really feel that if you are a contemporary artist, so you’re a contemporary artist, it’s not about a passport. So I just went to Africa, so I did a podcast in Africa. And it’s very, how would I say, very impressive in two ways. I’m talking about architect, okay, the architecture. They’re talking about African modernism, Afrofuturism. So they are now negotiating what modernity is in architecture. I’m not talking about art in architecture. They are negotiating because they don’t want to follow the West. They want to use their own materials, they want to use their own culture, their own ritual to create architecture. That’s a big say. I mean, we don’t have that here. I mean they just, you know, reject what the west has and has told them. This is only one part. This is a post colonialism, some reaction, but not in art. So I think it’s, you know, we don’t have that.
Qiu Anxiong: We have, we have. But you know, in China we have the owner a very long history and we have the so rich source of the culture. We have a lot of things, but it’s depend on how the people to use it. And I think in China we still have some, we still need the time to, you know, mix them because China have more than 100 years to modernisation until now. We still are in the process because.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I was just talking about the rise of Chinese art to parallel with the rise of African art. What I feel in the Chinese art when it begins to rise, what I don’t like, I’ll show you what I don’t like.
Qiu Anxiong: But you know, the African and Chinese art is completely different.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): No, no, no. I’m talk the stage of rising. They are going through the same thing. But what I didn’t like in China, which I told them is when all the beginning, when the Western curator comes in, they know nothing about Chinese history. And they will say this is good, this is bad, this is good and this is bad. Instead of us trying to negotiate with them, trying to have a dialogue with them, to pull them in, to see our point of view here we Just say, yes, yes, yes, you’re right. Okay, So I feel that, you know, I was just telling the Africans and I said, you don’t need to do that. You have to tell people why you think, you know, this direction is right. I think that took us a long time to have the confidence to start negotiating and to start communicating, because when the first game came in the 90s, early 2000, everybody just say, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
Qiu Anxiong: It’s very complicated problem because in China, we have the official system, you know, and, yeah, before. Before the Western coming. And there’s only way you can, you know, involved with the official system, but it’s not free. It’s, you know, it’s very limited. But when the people accepted the Western idea and they look forward, the Western, you know, as, you know, as a light, they really want to follow that. That’s the attitude of that in that time.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Because when I first came here, they.
Qiu Anxiong: Think that’s the freedom of them and that’s the, you know, more bigger space of them. And also it’s. They really want to involve in the international circle. They want to get in the international circle.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Because the first thing I saw when I first came to confront it is political pop. Political pop. And I said that this is not Chinese. This is the west definition of Chinese, of course, because. Because it’s easy for them to see that, oh, this is Chinese contemporary. But, you know, at that point, no one actually went and told the curator. And all the people say that this is. Because there’s no communication in that time.
Qiu Anxiong: The curator or the collector or the director of the museum in Weston. For them, it’s the opportunity, you know, so they just. They just want to join them.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Never, never even try to communicate and pull them to the right.
David Chan: I think it’s also part and parcel of process, you know, because I think now. I think we do it right now. I think it’d be.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I mean, it took decades, you know. It took decades to be able to say. I remember, I said. I said, this is not. That’s why I never have one piece of political. I said, this is not. This is Right. This is just the West.
Qiu Anxiong: You can say that is. How do you say Toji? It’s congratulations. Yeah, yeah.
David Chan: Culture, speculation.
Qiu Anxiong: They got the opportunity when they do something really with the politic. And, you know, it’s just like.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I remember Minglu was telling me when he did the inside out 1998, when he decided to put John Weng’s photograph on the cover, the curator of the Asia Society Museum was telling him why aren’t you putting the political pop? Why are you putting this? This is not Chinese contemporary art. So Minglu fought up to the top and said am I the curator or are these the curator? He maintained that. He maintained that position. And if he’s going to bend at the time. That’s 1998. If he would bend at the time, it will be a political problem. This is just what the west decided. This is Chinese contemporary art.
Qiu Anxiong: So because it’s easily for Western people understand.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes, it’s easy. Yeah, easy without. Without reading our history. Without reading. That is the easiest. It’s easiest, yeah, yeah.
Qiu Anxiong: For example, like this kind of painting for them is too strange. You know, I can understand why they would do something like that. But in that time it’s already passed and now all the environment is changed.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You know. I don’t blame the west because when the Chinese doesn’t who did not communicate, what do they know? But this is like a Western colonisation of culture. But that culture is willing to be colonised because for the west to understand, we need to communicate, we need to have a dialogue. If we don’t have a dialogue, how can they know? How could they know? So I think that is past. It took us decades for us to have the confidence to actually. To communicate. To be yourself.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah, of course. I think for example, when I was studying in the West I already realised that I cannot follow the Western art history to develop my art. I used to base on Chinese culture and Chinese philosophy and Chinese art. It’s not only I’m Chinese, because the Chinese art it’s really good. Yeah, it’s really. And it’s very deep, really, really very good mind about the human and nature’s relationship. And also they have the complete universal model in Chinese philosophy. So. And also it’s also very value for modern civilisation because we have many problem of modernisation, for example, the environment problem and yeah. The Chinese philosophy have a solution of that.
David Chan: I think that you are one of the very few artists of your generation that I know that are using all these kind of philosophy and mythology to in some ways deconstruct and come to terms with what’s going on. You know, I think not only in China, but you really kind of looking thinking about the bigger question of what the whole idea of modern civilisation, you know, and is kind of the toll that taking on humanity, you know and its strategy, I think is wonderful. And you’re One of very few, you. And you have that already conceptual framework. And even when you’re at Castle, you knew that you want to come back. So this is actually very quite rare that I know. Yeah, very few people did that actually. Not for that generation of artists.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah, yeah.
David Chan: Who are studying abroad.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Especially when you study abroad.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah. In that time it’s very big contrast because in that China still poor and yeah, it’s not developed as Western. But for me, I’m not really care about that. I think it’s most important is the Chinese culture still value for the world. And also we should really. Yeah. In that time. I really like revolution self education for me about Chinese culture after my graduate from the college. But for me that it’s really fresh to know the traditional world of China. It’s amazing, you know, and so great thinking about. It’s completely different from Western philosophy. And they have the really great idea about how the behaviour of the human and also how the relation between the human and nature.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, this is Taoism.
Qiu Anxiong: So. Yeah, yeah. That’s really deep mind even I think the Western does not reach that.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): No, no. Because we’re talking about climate changes. Protecting and protecting the environment is Daoism. Daoism has been talking about it for.
David Chan: I think as early as I believe 2006, when the first. The new classic of mountains and sea already the first one already talking about the natural resources, followed by the second one is about kind of the space race to the third one was actually just. It was done completely four years ago, five years ago, looking at this idea AI information technology. So actually you were really projecting, I mean, in relation to what’s happening right now. It’s really happening. So. Yeah. So I mean, it’s amazing.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don’t realise in that time, but I think the art is something like a witch. And yeah, I think art is coming from the psychic.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Let’s talk about the Western validation. I mean this is a big word of our Western validation because we always. This is my. This is my thought. I always thought that, you know, there’s the west, there’s Asia and in order for Asia to have a talk, to have a voice, we need to have a great infrastructure now. However, for a long time in whole Asia, whether it’s Japan, Korea, you know, China, we don’t have a great museum institution, culture, infrastructure that is at par with the West. No museum was as great as a museum in the West. So artists want to be, you know, artists have ego. They always want to be shown in the greatest museum in the world. It’s just like you mentioned, Mooma Matt and. And all that. Until now Hong Kong has created M. Now M, I believe that is the. It will be in the future will be at par with the West. And I think it’s coming to that, to that era. Now Hong Kong actually can say that because Hong Kong also have Dai Kun Palace Museum. It creates an environment and it creates a great infrastructure for art. So this question is to you, you David, because Hong Kong has always been a great financial city, a gateway and now it’s becoming a site of cultural authorship because we have these museums. So what are you thinking about it? And then now after that you have to explain to us about the four big museum in Sunjun, which I believe that they would be competing with M. So with these museums, do we see that we will become the voice of Asia? So it’s my big question, do we still then need the Western validation or can we actually create our own? You know, because with that support then you know, you’re a very rare artist that you would do things in accordance with to what you like. Ignoring the whole market, ignoring where the museum would give you validation. You are in a separate, separate thing because most artists, they have bread and butter, they have to feed their children. Also on top of it.
Qiu Anxiong: Me too, me too.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): And also, and also on top of it, you know, of course you want to be recognised by the west as well. Okay, so all that, can we discuss about that?
David Chan: I think M+ is doing what it needs to be doing. First thing first is that the content is really has to do with the region. You know, the Canton show also is really digging out the modern history of. You know, I think it’s a sense of pride and I think actually there’s a lot of confidence. I think they already realised that the only way to do a good institution is to develop very original exhibitions that can engage the public. I think the mission of an institution, I mean especially in Hong Kong, even in China, is not so much about whether we need to be on par with the west is to ensure that there is to develop the audience base locally.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Not just audience base, you actually develop the whole. Your own artist can follow, knows that they will have an institution that backs.
David Chan: Up, that will back you up. Yeah. And I think Hong Kong is doing that.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I think Hong Kong has done a great job.
David Chan: Yeah, it’s done a great job in a very short time and already you see see kind of, you know, institutions, very well-known institutions from be it Europe and us already collaborating with, you know, with Hong Kong. So I think that, you know, it’s really to keep that drive and keep developing good, you know, like regional exhibitions, you know, I think and preserving that curatorial integrity and not always thinking about whether we need to position in relation to someone else. You know, I think that it puts us in a kind of very difficult situation.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I think Hong Kong with the M+ is Hong Kong. And also in order to have this authorship, I think it is important for them to collaborate with the Western museum in order to bring some big shows to Hong Kong because not many people can travel to go to see those shows. And if we can have those shows in Hong Kong and then come to China, it would be amazing. And then with that it will encourage other and other countries to have better museum. Then we can be, you know, then we can have a calling power that maybe one day the west will follow what we say. This is good art rather than they telling us what is good and what is bad.
David Chan: I think also M+ is also very interesting because it’s not about contemporary art, it’s about contemporary culture. Yeah, culture, you know, it’s. Culture is very important and I think that context is very important to understand visual culture, you know. So I think that it, you know, set itself up as something already as an institution is very different, you know.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Culture is really important.
David Chan: Yes. Yeah.
Qiu Anxiong: I think.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Can you first let people let the audience know about the four big museums that everybody’s talking about in Shenzen?
Qiu Anxiong: I just heard recently and the Tencent and the Jingdong because they are technology.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Technology makes a lot of money and in China so they have to give back. So each of the museum they are building big museum in Shenzhen.
Qiu Anxiong: I think it’s good design for. It’s good sign for future. The even. Even the entrepreneur are focused on the culture things. And also they want involved with the art. I think it’s a good sign. Yeah.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): And also, and also I think it’s very good sign is because they have fundings. They don’t need to go out and raise funds. I mean they have enough fundings to create a fantastic museum.
Qiu Anxiong: And because they are really influential entrepreneur in China, even in the world. And so they. They have the enough money and also the influence for the public I think it’s good. And they also hired the professional curator like Pi Li.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): And Pi Li is going to run the musuem, right?
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah, yeah. And Peckham.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Robin.
Qiu Anxiong: Robin. Robin is also, you know, used to.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Be the art fair director.
Qiu Anxiong: He is part of my train project, the train project he is doing with that. So it’s so funny, you know. So I think it’s good they choose at least it’s not, you know, find some manager from the factory to be a director of the museum. I think they know to find a professional person to do that. I think it’s good. And yeah, I think it’s a positive sign.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): It’s very positive.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah. And also I know they are clever and they learn things very quick.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Do you think that China now will have great museum that can influence the public?
Qiu Anxiong: It needs time.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Of course it needs time.
Qiu Anxiong: And also it’s depend on how they do. I cannot tell the future, but I have the positive attitude of that and I hope they can make it better. It’s different from last generation. The people make the private museum. I think it will be different.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So I think that will be great support for Chinese contemporary.
David Chan: May I ask Qiu Anxiong, what are the biggest kind of obstacles and challenges for kind of young or emerging artists from.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): China with this, this whole changes today? Because when you were, when you came back, you actually have a lot of opportunities today, the younger generation, everything is more expensive. Before I remember, you can go very little money, you have a big studio and all that today is a complete different environment. And what is the opportunities with these big changes? You’re teaching, you see your student. What do you think?
Qiu Anxiong: I think it’s completely different. In that time we really just wanted to. To be a professional artist. And I only do my art and nothing else. But still I am teaching, you know, for supporting my based life living and. But I think now it’s just. How to say it’s more difficult for young artists to, you know, become a professional. Because the. It’s not. I don’t think it’s because of the codes of the life. No, I think it’s the same. You know, your first time to my studio, just a very small space in this apartment I rent. So it’s the same. This is the same. It’s not every, every artist from starting can get, you know, big studio. It’s the same things. But I think it’s more difficult to, you know, now in that time there no market in China. Yes, even no market.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, no market. It’s Just infrastructure.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah. But it’s good for. It’s more many things clear you should do. But it’s also limited creation of the artists. Something they can do or they afraid to do. Not ask me. You know, I. I want to train. I don’t care about the cost and also I don’t care about the. If it can sell it.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): The fear to survive.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think now it’s more different.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You know, you have your wife who’s very supportive. I mean you. You were blessed at that time.
Qiu Anxiong: Come on. Yeah.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): There’s not many people who have a wife who will support you to do whatever you want.
Qiu Anxiong: That’s the. How to say. It’s not really, you know, general reason. I think for everybody have their own difficulty things. But if you really want to do something, just do it.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You have to be determined.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah. You should must very clear what do you want to do. But now I think more young people, they are not really, you know, all in.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes.
Qiu Anxiong: They always hesitate.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I agree. I agree.
Qiu Anxiong: And they always think maybe it’s too difficult for me. I think it’s about the courage. Only one thing I want to do. I don’t care about anything else. Because in that time I’m not really, you know, like ignore like stupid. Just do their thing.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You just focus.
David Chan: I think there’s always a necessity. I mean, I think for any artist, be it. I mean you can say good or bad artists. I mean it’s something they live with on a daily basis. You know, even they don’t sell. They sell. It’s something they do.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You know, you have to be determined everything in life, what you want to do. You have to have this confidence and determine no matter whether you’re down or not, because you have that passion. But the problem is today a lot of young people doesn’t have that passion.
Qiu Anxiong: That passion is important because I think the daily life and also the environment, they already consume their passion. That’s interesting. This concentrate many things. They are really hard to concentrate the energy to do something very special.
David Chan: Yeah. Because I think at the time, you know, you go wind by the clock. Maybe you know, like in the early 2000, I think it seems like art was the thing to really express. It’s one of the few challenges you can express itself. And now there’s so many different ways of expressing 1 and 2 is. I agree completely. Is that the energy. I think they tend to get very distracted. So that I think also we’re having this problem too. Right. Is that we look at art. You know like how. What kind of art. How can you create conditions for people to actually stay in a space and look at art and experience art in itself is already a challenge. So I agree.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah. Also, but I think now the young generation, they have their own solution. Because now before we don’t have the social media, we don’t have the Internet and yeah. In that time few disturb of your mind but now it’s too many how to say the voice. Too many voice in outside and you know, too much. I think. Yeah. In this time I think you should, you know how to say do to. Yeah. Just concentrate. Yeah.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Close at the. Close yourself into one space.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah. And. And also concentrate on. On your really value things.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): What is important to you.
Qiu Anxiong: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So. And also. Also do art is not only way into. Involved with the art circle. I think now the art circle is really, you know, like too old and too conservative.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Conservative.
Qiu Anxiong: Conservative. And it’s not really, you know, paralysed with the reality of now because the technology develops so quickly and so the young generation, they are sensitive of that. They can very soon know what’s happened in the world and they can learn the new things. Maybe. I think they are not just, you know, follow the traditional way in art circle you join the biannual and.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You know, actually I’m thinking that’s the.
Qiu Anxiong: Very traditional way, just like before in Chinese, the official system. You only way to take part in the Chuango maids.
David Chan:I think also for your recent practise also is that you are really. You really thinking much more about not presenting art in. Only in the gallery context. And also you’re also doing a lot of collaboration with poets and musicians and travelling out of the white pew. Yeah. And then really having that kind of interdisciplinary kind of crossover and exchange. I think it’s really, really interesting.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Interdiscipline has been. I mean is one of the renren. Yeah.
David Chan: Very Chinese literacy culture that.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): And that. And that you would do. And actually in the West Bauhaus was doing that in 1930s but China has.
Qiu Anxiong: Been doing it thousand years ago. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): And you were just practising the same thing, the interdiscipline.
David Chan: And then I think also the. It becomes. I think the. Your audience, maybe it’s not just the public. Are the people collaborating with you? You can join. Yeah. And you can have really kind of intensive kind of exchange and dialogue with people. I think that creates a very good kind of support structure for your practise too.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You don’t think Chinese contemporary art is declining, right?
Qiu Anxiong: Yes or no, but a decline seems like evolving is also the economic decline. And so the influence of the art, of course, but it’s also, yeah, like you say, the art, not really, you know, just chasing the market and the. Do you think, do you think more. More. How to say more cultural things?
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah. Do you think that actually we are not declining, but actually we are rejecting a Western validation so we don’t really need a Western museum, even though I think we do, because I think most of artists would love to have a Western validation. However, the power that we gave to west 30 years ago is not as important as today. So the cultural power is actually moving. Do you agree with me?
Qiu Anxiong: We are still open, I think we still can learn everything.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): It’s a mutual.
Qiu Anxiong: It’s a cultural dilemma now the globalisation is. Nobody can stop it, not even Trump. And I think because we have the technology so easy to travel and communicate. Yeah, everybody can know what’s happened in the earth in one day, so nobody can stop that. And so we are not really close. We are Chinese, we don’t need know something out of China. No, no, no, I think we, we should know everything and. But yeah, we have the confidence of the own. Develop our own culture, own art.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I actually believe there’s a recentering, David.
David Chan: I think the condition, you know, be it the use of technology or urbanisation and the development of China also has relationship and links with other places, you know, So I think that it’s, you know, what’s happening here also will affect what’s happening there, you know, so the way I see this is that is that I don’t think is a decline. I think it’s also is, I think.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Going through the process of cultural power.
David Chan: I wouldn’t, you know, cultural power until someone is in control of the situation, which I think culture in itself, nobody can really control. I mean, maybe for the contemporary art, you know, that kind of culture, you.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Can look at Hollywood movie, yes, but.
David Chan: That’s another kind of culture, you know, But I think in terms of contemporary art, but in terms of contemporary art, I think the spirit of it is still about kind of finding commonality and acknowledging differences. So what’s happening here, celebrating the differences and what’s happening, I think here in China also will affect what’s happening elsewhere and what’s happening else also happening here, because we’re still in, we’re in it together, you know, it’s a community. It’s a community, you know, And I think contemporary art is about posing questions, posing very difficult questions, not only for a set audience. It’s for audience for everybody. So I think as curators, as scatterers, as artists, I think the only thing we can do is to give artists the space and resources to do what they need to do and write about it. And trying to create a narrative so that’s accessible for the public to understand. By doing that, create A bigger. A broader audience base, you know, that’s the only assurance that we can have cultural power. I think the most important cultural power is to create good and honest culture, you know, and that’s the power, you know, in itself, you know?
Qiu Anxiong: Yes.
David Chan: Yeah, I maybe agree that.
Qiu Anxiong: And still now, I think the. Like a game, video game, they already.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Do something like that.
Qiu Anxiong: Huge culture, the.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Labubu already created another culture.
Qiu Anxiong: And. But the, you know, the. The game, the Haitian Hua, black myth, the Wukong, had really, really. They include the Chinese aesthetic aesthetics. Yeah, it’s very influential of the West. They are really, you know, involved with. They want to read the romance, the Journey of the West, Monkey, the Monkey, the Monkey King. And yeah, it’s not education, but they really want to know what our Chinese culture is. So that’s. I think China will be in this area, will be more and more to do more things. And they are really confident now.
David Chan: I agree. There’s much more confidence than ever before.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Perhaps Chinese contemporary art does not need to rise again. Perhaps it is a moment that we are looking at centering, not retreat. So looking at that, I think we need to look at exhibitions like Qiu Anxiong’s, which remind us that serious artist inquiries does not need to follow fashion. It outlives it, I think. I would like to invite you all to come to Chill’s exhibition during Art Basel in Hong Kong time so we can actually continue the conversation in person. Thank you.
Qiu Anxiong: Thank you,
David Chan: Thank you.
