Pearl Lam (林明珠): Good evening everyone. I am Pearl Lam and welcome to The Pearl Lam Podcast, live from Contemporary Istanbul. Ali, thank you for inviting me and thank you to everyone for joining me today. Now, I can begin by asking Ali about 20 years of Contemporary Istanbul. But I think there is a much more interesting conversation to have. Istanbul has never had to invent culture. For centuries, culture has moved through the city through trade, migration, religion, empire, architecture, music and ideas. And in contemporary art, Istanbul is hardly an outsider. Istanbul Biennial has brought here artists, curators and institutions from around the world here. So the question is not whether Istanbul can attract international attention, it already has. So the more interesting question is what do you do with that attention? A city can produce extraordinary artists and ideas while another city represents them, sells them, validates them. And it raises an uncomfortable question, who actually decides what matters? An artist, the artist, the curator, the collector, the market? Or are we still waiting for a small number of international institutions and cultural capital to tell us what is important? For over 20 years, Ali Güreli has built up Contemporary Istanbul. So today I’m here with Ali. I want to ask him, I want to ask him something more difficult instead of talking about 20 years of Contemporary Istanbul. So I want to ask you, what does Istanbul still need to prove and to whom?
Ali Güreli: Thank you, Pearl. I’m happy to be with you in this program.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Your program,
Ali Güreli: My program. Well, I can say Istanbul has accumulated cultural significance over millennia through successive civilizations. That inheritance continues to shape its architecture, craftsmanship and imagination. People travel here because Istanbul already occupies a place in their minds. Istanbul offers a unique experience that countless civilizations have already proven. What we are doing with Contemporary Istanbul for the last 20 years is adding contemporary art to that experience. What does Istanbul need to prove? Well, that this city is now and will continue to grow into an international economic and financial center. This is what we’re going to prove now.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): But to who? Who are you going to prove that? Do you want to prove to the whole world or do you want to be self significant?
Ali Güreli: Well, maybe to the whole world, but not, of course we cannot. We won’t be able to cover the whole world, but mainly to the region. We already did prove it to the region. Yeah, the region. Now we’re enlarging this region means to Asia. So we are here with you. That means we have proven to you.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I hope, as I said, when people face me and then I’ll come back. Okay, next question I want to ask you is when you founded Contemporary Istanbul, what did you feel was missing in the city?
Ali Güreli: Well, we have three generations of Collectors in Turkey, the first generation, I can say at the beginning of the republic generation, primarily collected Ottoman, orientalist and modern art. The second generation, born in 50s or 60s, made up with architects, engineers, scientists, collected both modern and contemporary art. And I’m a part of that generation. Well, instead of second generation, maybe I’m second and a half second. Not so my own collection. Collecting begin with modest means. My father was an architect and after university I moved to Paris. During the years when Paris was still the center of the art world. Yes, you know, mid of 80s, end of 80s, that period of my life brought me into contact with both modern and contemporary galleries and artists. When I returned to Turkey, now we call it Turkey, you know, I began buying work and following artists more closely. The next generation, born in the 70s 80s started their art journeys by primarily contemporary art. Starting in the 90s and early 20s, 2000s, when I visited Art Basel, I saw how a small town in the middle of Europe, it was 1998, middle of Europe, could have such a huge impact in the art world. And realized that Istanbul had enormous potential. This is why I felt and realized establishing an art fair in Istanbul made participating and investing in culture less daunting, more accessible. Today, collectors from Turkey travel widely and have much greater access to artists and institutions. They are everywhere. There is more willingness to make a considered commitment early and continue following the work as it develops. Collecting is a culture, collectors is a culture. We are learning this culture.
Ali Güreli: Exactly. And early exposure helps confidence.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): You know, a city like Turkey, like Hong Kong or whatever, I mean, especially, you know, Turkey or China, it can be culturally vibrant, but without capturing commercial value. What I meant is there are artists who are very known here, but eventually they go abroad and they make their names. And it’s the overseas galleries that capture this financial means. Why would this happen? Why?
Ali Güreli: I think main point is tax incentives motivate greater investment in art. Cities like Paris or in France have done this very well with sweeping reforms in the 20th century, 1974, this famous law. We are working on similar reforms and incentives in Turkey that will create an environment where more people are motivated to invest in art. This creates more collections, more patronage. Istanbul already has tremendous cultural value. Translating it into an art investment environment is what we are constantly working towards. That’s my answer.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): But artists, when artists is validated, celebrated abroad, then when they return home, they become. I mean, they are taken seriously. Only after that they are validated abroad. Why do you think that this happened? But this is not necessarily just in Turkey, in many other places, they always get Validated like in New York, London, Paris. And then when they back home, they say, oh, wow, he’s great. Because, you know, you have all these international galleries and immediately, boom, their name becomes big. Is there a reason?
Ali Güreli: Well, Contemporary Istanbul began with GDP. Existing GDP in Turkey was about per capita $3,500.
Ali Güreli: Yeah, very, very poor. We were poor. Yeah, yeah. Today it’s 16,000 in about 20 years.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): That’s not bad. Four times. Yeah, more than four times.
Ali Güreli: I anticipate that with the impending economic reforms that we need and which we are working on, some of which we are spearheading and guiding, in the next 10 years, I can say that number will turn into 30,000. We see that. But we need serious reforms like France did. This is a result of a broader understanding of the soft power of art and how strategic regulation can encourage greater investment in contemporary art. Having centuries of cultural heritage does not automatically translate to economic viability. That is the bridge we. We are building, trying to build that bridge.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So are you trying to keep your artists here instead of having them to go abroad? Because a lot of artists, you know, not limited to Turkey, in China, everywhere as well, they want to go to the capital, London, Paris, New York, because they feel that they need to be celebrated there. They need to make this significant career there. Do you have the same problem here?
Ali Güreli: Yes, we have also we have the problem of having more artists from Turkey to abroad to exhibit abroad and deal with the galleries and then stay there. And one other advantage we have now is, you know, in Germany, in Germany, after the Second World War, 50s, 55, many people moved to Germany to work in the German economy. And now the second generation, third generation, start raising. And then in them, among them, there are many artists born in Germany, but they are so successful. So this is a great advantage for us. I mean, because they want to come to Turkey as well, but they have their living in Germany and they are well known in Europe.
Ali Güreli: Yeah. And then there’s a conflict of identity, naturally.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): But there’s a lot of artwork about identity as well.
Ali Güreli: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So have Turkish collective become more. More confident to trust their own judgment. So they don’t look at. They don’t even look at what the international market is collecting. They just follow their heart. Are that confidence growing?
Ali Güreli: Well, again, in my country, people have endured a lot of hardships as a brand that represents contemporary art. Contemporary Istanbul. We had to be resilient. We had to inspire confidence, admiration. So we also had to be aspirational and accessible. We do need to be better at art advising. Another thing that was missing was a confident younger generation ready to invest. Missing. Now it exists and they are finally looking at contemporary art as a worthwhile investment. But this did not happen overnight. For example, our 2016 edition took place just 60 days after the coup attempt in Turkey. Many people thought that the timing of the art fair was wrong. Understandably, there was a lack of faith in the market. But it turned out to be one of our most successful editions. After 60 days, our endurance was witnessed globally. And commitment inspires confidence in the region and in the market. The sense of security that people feel when attending an established fair has been largely missing. But in this place for 20 years, people witnessed our determination and a sustained art fair. The collectors who grew with us helped shape the direction of many artists’ careers and I believe in their instincts.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Bravo. Do you think a higher price and a higher price of artwork makes an artist more significant? And why? The price a high price of an artwork makes an artist more significant? And why?
Ali Güreli: Well, I think it should reinforce judgment, not replace it.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So you think that higher prices are encouraging the market? And how about do many artists want higher price? Do many artists want the price to go up? Especially, you know, with the auctions?
Ali Güreli: Well, I think the price of the artwork of an artist shouldn’t go up so quickly.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): The sustainability is a problem.
Ali Güreli: Sustainability and also the production of the artwork. The outcome. Artworks should be present in many collections of well-known people.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): To create credentials.
Ali Güreli: Also some museums. Also the museums. Then slowly, slowly the price may go up. Not necessarily, but maybe go up. So then without having this relation, international relation or connection on the world, the prices shouldn’t go up. So there is a critical point between the gallery and the artist.
Ali Güreli: So duality also trying to increase the price they push. But it’s not a scientific method.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Because I always thought that artwork should be about longevity. And if your prices just suddenly push up, the sustainability is a problem.
Ali Güreli: Exactly.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So we agree the same thing.
Ali Güreli: Of course.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I think one very interesting question that this good discussion is Gulf. The Gulf has been pouring money in building cultural revolution. So can money alone create cultural power?
Ali Güreli: Yes, nowadays it’s a very good question.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, but you know, Istanbul builds up the culture through generation. But they, you know. But now we have the Gulf who were just pouring money creating cultural institution, foundation and all that. But could they actually create a cultural power that they can lead?
Ali Güreli: Well, capital can accelerate a great deal. I can give institutions acquisitions, budgets, bring experienced curators together and make ambitious architectural projects, exhibitions possible. Sustained Investment also allows younger people to train and build careers in culture. The Gulf’s commitment is significant because it’s creating those opportunities at considerable scale, big scale. For Istanbul, that means more potential partners and more reasons for collectors to travel within the region. Here, new investments enters a cultural history that has been accumulated for millennia. Each generation adds institutions, collections and expertise on top what was already inherited. The new Sadberk Hanım Museum, for example, which will take place in this project by Koç Foundation, which will be the largest museum in Turkey with 35,000 square meter.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Of 35,000 square meters.
Ali Güreli: 35 Very nearby building of exhibition space in Tersane. So Istanbul is being constructed within a 600 year old structure. This museum, it’s a 600-year-old building.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): 600 Years old?
Ali Güreli: Yes, built by Ottomans.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): But hold on, you know, most of these old buildings, you have to preserve it. You cannot touch the wall. You could not do that. And how, you know, how could it build with that building?
Ali Güreli: Well, it depends on there is a category of that building. So it depends not all of them. Sometimes you have to protect the facade and play in the interiors. So sometimes you cannot touch anything. So it depends. So my question will be, don’t you think that’s much more exciting than a brand new starchitect building?
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Of course it is. Of course. You know, we talk about all these architectural buildings and one thing I feel is very sad about Beijing is because they, they really tear down Beijing for 2008 and Beijing now looks like a sci fi city. But what is beautiful about a city is the old building. Like you have the Ottoman buildings and the patina is beautiful because if you have a museum with artwork and together with an old building, it’s magnificent, it’s magical.
Ali Güreli: That’s the beauty of Istanbul.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah.
Ali Güreli: And also all the cities in the Anatolia, there are lots of. It’s a treasure. I mean, it’s an open museum.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So when you talk about the museum, the Koç museum, is it a contemporary museum or is it museum from old until today?
Ali Güreli: Old until today because the collection covers books, ceramics, many other products. So I think the family, the foundation will be exhibiting all their existing collection in that museum. Very impressive because there is already Arter which provides contemporary arts, which serves the contemporary art world. So we’ll see. But there are also conference sets and everything. So it’s a great project.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): When is it finishing?
Ali Güreli: Beginning of 29.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Wow. Okay, now I’m going to ask you a very challenging question. Does the world still need so many art fairs? We have art fairs all over the World, it’s not art fairs, it is biennials. So do we still need so many art fairs? Since you are the founder of the Contemporary Istanbul. Honest answer.
Ali Güreli: But let me put it this way. 21 Years ago, 2006, when we started, by coincidence, we were the 21st art fair in the world. 21 Years ago, we were the 21st art Fair in the world.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): There’s only 21 out there at the time. My God.
Ali Güreli: Now there are over 300, maybe more, maybe close to 400. We cannot follow anymore.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Exactly.
Ali Güreli: Big, small, here, there, city, Puli village. It’s true. The art fair calendar is so crowded, I think collectors ultimately determine which fairs endure, which fairs thrive. 2. The way people discover and buy art has evolved significantly. For example, some collectors go to Miami, but skip the fair in favor of studio visits and individual appointments. They prefer, they don’t want to be a part of that crowd.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Parties everywhere. Miami.
Ali Güreli: Yeah, but appointments, appointments, I would say a lot of people, but they travel, they see their friends, they meet their friends. But don’t miss.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I know a lot of them go socializing.
Ali Güreli: So it used to be that 100% of the business was the art fair itself. Now I think it’s 50% to 60%. The remaining half is experience, gastronomy, culture, entertainment, history, all the treasures that the city serves and presents. And there are more structural considerations that make an art fair more attractive, worthwhile. So shipping a significant group of works internationally can determine whether participation is financially possible. Our partnership with Turkish Airlines, I want to mention it provides free international cargo support which is unique in the world.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): It is unique.
Ali Güreli: It is unique. And our main partner, Akbank’s backing for the customs guarantee is another important commitment that makes a difference for, yeah, for many galleries and effectively becomes at the end, 15 to 20% savings in a gallery’s participation budget, which is a tremendous number. So these arrangements directly affect what the gallery can bring and the scale of projects we can accommodate. They also show if their major Turkish businesses are prepared to put their capabilities behind the cultural life of the city. Through our foundation, Contemporary Istanbul foundation, we also enabled nonprofit presentations that helped galleries connect with broader institutions. I would absolutely create Contemporary Istanbul again today. That was the question. No, really, Istanbul already gives people compelling reasons to travel.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Given today there’s so many affairs in the world and you can go to online and see all the paintings and there’s online sales and there’s online auctions, there’s online exhibition. You will, you will do another Contemporary Istanbul as a first time here in 2026.
Ali Güreli: If it is in Istanbul.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): If it is in Istanbul, if you have all your.
Ali Güreli: Partners not in Paris.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Paris is.
Ali Güreli: Or Hong Kong, whatever.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): What do you think about Hong Kong when you were in Hong Kong, when you saw the Art Basel?
Ali Güreli: Yeah, I’ve been there several times. It is impressive. Hong Kong is a wonderful city. I mean, unique city again in the world.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): But Hong Kong doesn’t have culture like here.
Ali Güreli: You have culture from generations. I agree, but people are nice, people are polite, people are so kind. That’s very important. I mean, you feel fine in the city. That is what I noticed whenever I went there.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): And you just went to the Art Basel fair. What do you think about the Art Basel fair?
Ali Güreli: Which Basel fair?
Pearl Lam (林明珠): The Art Basel in Hong Kong? Yeah.
Ali Güreli: Abha, Well, I can say it’s a different category. I mean, honestly, I feel like. And I see that, you know, Art Basel in Basel was unique, but now most.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Of the people go to Paris instead.
Ali Güreli: Of Basel Paris, Miami, Hong Kong and then. So I think it’s too much, you know, and it’s losing its, let’s say, in a way, quality, I would say. But that’s why we are willing to stay like hosting 70, not more than 80 galleries and never go up. So instead we want to improve our quality of art, quality of galleries, and quality of all other facts that I mentioned, like the entertainment, city experience and everything. So we offer a very unique VIP program to our guests.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): That you take every. They go around to see Studio.
Ali Güreli: Exactly. And we offer like maybe we with our partnerships with the hotels in the city, about 25, 28 hotels. We have partnering.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): 25-28 Hotels, yes.
Ali Güreli: And we are able to host about 400 guests in those hotels free of charge. Two nights. Three nights. So this is also important, these services that.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, I got your three nights.
Ali Güreli: Thank you. Congratulations. Well, it’s not something that the collectors are willing to have, but when you offer it, they like it, they feel better, they feel nice.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Freebies.
Ali Güreli: So we don’t want to increase our prices in the coming years, but rather increasing the quality of the services.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Okay. We go to art fairs everywhere. So what do you think beyond selling and socializing in an art fair, what should it exist for? What is the future should be? What is the new format? I mean, beside selling and socializing? What is your thinking about the future of the art fair?
Ali Güreli: Well, the responsibilities operate together. Galleries need sales, artists need opportunities, and audiences deserve a program worth spending time with. The Contemporary Istanbul foundation allows us to develop exhibitions, public projects and discussions that give people a fuller encounter with contemporary culture. This year, for example, Kulapat Yantrasast.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, I just saw Kulapat.
Ali Güreli: Yeah, Wonderful guy. And Akiko Miki bring experience of creating cultural spaces and developing institutions, including Naoshima. For a young curator, artist or patron in Istanbul, access to that experience can be invaluable. These activities complement each other, but they require their own care and resources. They make the fair useful to people at different stages of their relationship with art, including those who may eventually become collectors themselves. Expending these commitments make the fair more commercially attractive as well.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, because I think a lot of people are very intimidated just going to the galleries. They feel more comfortable if they go to art fairs. Because people are more friendly at the art fairs. Do you think so?
Ali Güreli: Yes, I agree.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Because when I’m here, I saw a lot of people from Switzerland as well.
Ali Güreli: Yes.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah. Because they said, oh, we love the art fair here. We love to go around Istanbul. Congratulations.
Ali Güreli: Well, in the coming years, we also plan to, you know, after the fair, going to maybe to south of Turkey, to Cappadocia. Kind of unique places.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I just went there. I went there two years ago. I love the village.
Ali Güreli: Unique, unique. They’re all unique. So having few days in Istanbul and then few days there, fantastic. When you travel from abroad, from overseas.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes, absolutely.
Ali Güreli: You want to stay like seven, eight days
Pearl Lam (林明珠): And then you have a lot of UNESCO protection, like rocks and all that. Okay. People always say that Istanbul is a bridge between east and West. I find it very limiting. Why can’t Istanbul define itself as a cultural capital?
Ali Güreli: I agree. A bridge is something you cross to go somewhere else. Istanbul is not somewhere in between.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): No, because Istanbul has a lot of culture.
Ali Güreli: Istanbul is the place. I mean, Istanbul contributes to a particular experience of time. Several civilizations remain present in the city. At once you encounter Byzantine architecture, Ottoman buildings, and the life of a modern metropolis with a short walk. Successive generations have built on and reinterpreted what they inherited. That has consequences for the way people make things here. There is a long familiarity with translating influences into a local language, whether it architecture, ceramics, textiles or contemporary art. Tersane gives us an immediate example.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Absolutely.
Ali Güreli: I also think that we are presenting artists in a former Ottoman shipyard on the Golden Horn.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Wow.
Ali Güreli: Yeah. The conterpiece installation enters that history and adds another use to the site. Istanbul is already a global destination. Our contribution is to expand what people can come here to experience and what artists can accomplish here. That’s it.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): So really, it cannot. It shouldn’t be called bridge. Right. Cultural capital is better.Building Contemporary Istanbul, what has Actually changed. Has it changed the fair? Has it been evolving?
Ali Güreli: For sure.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): I mean, what is it from the beginning to here?
Ali Güreli: It took us 10 years to build the confidence in the art market. That is the main stage. What we see. We also helped expand the local collectors horizons to include artists from around the world. They were all buying local arts sometimes many years ago. Our clearest contribution has been to make certain encounters happen regularly in Istanbul. Regularity in Istanbul. Galleries here gained an occasion to meet international collectors on their own ground.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes, of course.
Ali Güreli: While collectors in Turkey gained repeated exposure to galleries and artists from abroad, those encounters became part of the city’s annual rhythm. Istanbul would not have become a global platform where so many young artists emerged without the fair. I can say, for example, Refik Anadol, the famous digital artist.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes.
Ali Güreli: Imagine showed in our old digital section plugin in 2013.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Wow.
Ali Güreli: Yeah. When he was a very young artist. Wow.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): That’s a long time ago. California.
Ali Güreli: We had a digital arts section for nine years, started in 2013.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Wow. Very impressive.
Ali Güreli: Yeah. And we were pioneering by that time. So institutional collection remains an area where I would have liked us to achieve more. We need more regular acquisitions budgets and more patrons prepared to help museums purchase work. We have also not quite yet succeeded in expanding the state’s strategy of utilizing art as soft power, which would greatly expand financial support and make more ambitious projects possible.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): When you first begin, do you have those installations and the public project when you first opened CI or was it just booth selling?
Ali Güreli: Well, nice. It was not never only booth sell.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): It’s always have a public project. For 21 years?
Ali Güreli: Well, maybe smaller ones, maybe without any budget, some medium sized one. But now we are ready to go for larger size ones.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Amazing. And yeah, so we talk about recognition and who decides value. What kind of art ecosystem does Istanbul wants to build itself?
Ali Güreli: Well, okay. Istanbul’s heritage has accumulated because successive generations contributed something that later generations could inherit. We are working within a much longer history after 20 years. I’m especially interested in what our work makes possible for the people who follow us. The relationships they inherit, the institutions they can work with, and the ambitions they feel able to bring to this city. I’m trying to imagine everything we are building today through the eyes of my grandsons. I have two grandsons, five and three. So I’m trying to think with their mind, what kind of Istanbul will they inherit and what would they like to see? Everything we do ultimately belongs to them. So we are constantly working towards Istanbul for future generations. Turkey for a very long time tried to open itself to the outer world by emphasizing its cultural background and history, which is unique. Now we can and should start accentuating the new contemporary letter we may have to the past. We are, at this point, amazing. Thank you.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Perhaps the real test of cultural power is not whether the world comes to us. It is whether you still need the world to tell you what matters. Istanbul has never lacked culture, nor has it lacked of international attention. But attention is not power, and visibility is not influence. The harder question is what happens when the world arrives? Do you build an ecosystem confident enough to create its own value? Can you build a market where without a market dictate the culture? Can you remain internationally relevant without becoming internationally obedient? That is the challenge facing Istanbul now, and perhaps after 20 years. That is also what makes Contemporary Istanbul interesting. Ali has not simply built an art fair. He’s created a place where some of these questions can be tested by artists, by galleries, by collectors, by all of us sitting here now. Today, the international art world is already paying attention to Istanbul. The most interesting question is who will Istanbul choose to listen to? Ali, thank you for joining us and thank you, Contemporary Istanbul, for inviting me. Thank you, everyone. Thank you.
