Pearl Lam (林明珠): Welcome to the Pearl Lam Podcast. Today we have Angelle Lee, who is the director of Art Basel Hong Kong. We are recording this two weeks before the opening of Art Basel Hong Kong, one of the most visible platform in the global art world. But today the market is very different than 10 years ago. And while the mega gallery is consolidating and quietly retreated from certain region. Costs have risen and liquidity have tightened, confidence feels much less measured. And even though United States is still the centre of the art market, Asian artists still require you as markets to support the price escalation. And they also require institution and museum in the west to validate their credentials. Asian market is growing dramatically, but Asian collectors still follow the collecting patterns in the West. So wherever it is selling in the US, Asian collectors would buy the same artworks. Since 2019, the visitor demography in Art Basel Hong Kong has changed, has, I think has changed quite a lot because we can still see the western director, I mean museum director, institution directors and curators from the west walking along the aisle. But we have seen less western museum trustees, members of the international council, the big buyers coming to Hong Kong, visiting in Hong Kong. So the question I want to ask and want to discuss with Angel Lee is whether the global art market is restructuring and what is Hong Kong role within this restructuring? Your formal career as a journalist and a critic, how does it shape your, your role as a director of Art Basel Hong Kong and what’s your vision?

Angelle Siyang-Le: Well, firstly, thank you, Pearl. Thank you Pearl for inviting me to your podcast. I’ve been following you on Instagram obviously. I was, I did write for magazines, art magazines and I did have like art exhibition reviews that was done for me before as a freelancer.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): So that we will call us as critics as well.
Angelle Siyang-Le: Thank you
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Because you’re writing reviews.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Thank you so much.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): So you’re very modest.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Thank you.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Incredibly Modest.

Angelle Siyang-Le
But what I used to do was I used to represent a private collection in Dubai before I came back to Hong Kong. And I have been in Art Basle for, this is my 14th year.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, you, you start from the very beginning.

Angelle Siyang-Le: I started from the very beginning. Started from taking care of galleries like yours and before that I actually worked very closely with artists as well. I’ve been, you know, working as artist assistants, artist liaisons at the very beginning of my career. So I always have the love for artists and art galleries. And now what I am doing is still supporting galleries and artists because I feel that this is the content provider for the entire art world. And what we do from Art Basel is very much to continue to build and comprehend this, our ecosystem that supports the next generations of artists. And yes, you mentioned about the changes in the art market, in our institutional kind of structure. I do see that the shift has been very significant, especially after Covid, the market is very different, the dynamics are very different, the demographic is very different. But what I have seen is since Covid the recovery, it’s still a positive, it’s still up.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes, yes, I can see that as well. But you know, we are looking at a global market. We are not even looking at just Hong Kong. I think Hong Kong is playing a very important role. But the global market now is, do you think it is a restructuring or do you think that it is actually stabilising? What are you thinking about this? This whole idea of this, I mean mid sized gallery closing and the mega gallery is retreating from certain region and then build up big, big galleries in another region. What are you feeling about that?

Angelle Siyang-Le: From where I stand, stabilisation is definitely not a word we come across for many years now. So, I mean in the contrast, I do believe that there is some sort of restructuring, reshaping. We’ve been talking about, you know, the roles in the art ecosystem has also been shifting.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah.

Angelle Siyang-Le: So yes, I think from the latest UBS art market reports we can see that actually what people don’t pay attention is that the majority of the percentage is still new gallery openings. So the smaller. Well wouldn’t be smaller, like over 40% of the new galleries have been opened in the past years and then over 20% closed. So, we all focus more on the closures of galleries and the majority of the galleries which in the middle they are going through restructuring and readapting to the market.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): What I see is it seems that the art world is doing in that format. The mega galleries are getting very powerful. So what are you seeing? Is because the mega power, I mean mega galleries, the power is being concentrated. The middle gap, the mid sized gallery is disappearing. But then we still have these very young niche gallery. So where is the balance of power? So are we saying that artists, you know, every artist wanted to go to mega galleries because they have the financial resources to go to every art fair, the major art fair. So, what are we seeing the ecosystem? The ecosystem is completely, has an unbalance of power. What are we going to, how is an art fair, because I believe that art fairs like Art Basel is very powerful. So how are you all going to address this?

Angelle Siyang-Le: I definitely, I definitely see every tiers of the gallery systems is trying to, trying very hard to adapt to today’s market.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Because cost is really expensive today.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Yes.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I mean as a gallerist myself I can tell you after Covid the shipping cost has been. I mean has jumped up so much and your booth prices has gone up. Thank you. The booth prices has gone up as well. So I mean to talk about a mid sized gallery to join all these important art fairs is very difficult. I mean I used to join like 12 or 13 art fairs; I had to tone down because I mean 2024 was such a bad. Is not? I mean 2024 was okay, still the last quarter of 2024 wasn’t pleasant. Last year wasn’t good at all. So, so how is Art Basel or how is any art fairs, I mean going to contribute and help in the balance of power?

Angelle Siyang-Le: So as a brand of Art Basel which we may take things slightly different compared to the other art fairs. So we. I would not be able to speak on behalf of other organisers, but for us, we, actually have one thing that we’ve stabilized, is the booth rental fee. We actually have kept a steady growth of booth rental fees to the minimal. Obviously depending on your locations. Like Pearl, you are in the front and centre of Art Basel Hong Kong. And secondly what we have done as an art fair is we have this new sector called Echoes. Very much to your point. The mid tier, mid sized galleries are the kind of the category of the art ecosystem that needs the most support.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Absolutely.

Angelle Siyang-Le: So we have opened up this eco sector in order to provide additional platforms that it’s. In terms of booth pricing, it’s slightly more subsidised and also at the same time to give them a focus spotlight on their booth presentation. Especially those who bring mid career artists. Because that is also another.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes. Another problem. The mid career artists I think at this climate, I mean mid career artists and the midsize size gallery is all suffering, especially on our Asian side. Especially with the, you know, with this dire situation of the art market. I mean, unless you are really big name, Western, Western artist, blue chip, it’s very hard.

Angelle Siyang-Le: That’s what we’ve been trying to do. Obviously, you know, from art fair perspectives, it’s. We can put out all these additional sectors, bringing in different programming. But at the end of the day, I think as a galleries, what you want us to do is to bring in the clients, bring in the new audience.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Absolutely.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Yeah. So that in the, in the past few years, especially coming out of COVID we did see the surge of younger generations, especially Southeast Asian.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): You brought in a lot of Southeast Asian. Asian.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Thank you. Yes, we did.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I need to thank you for that. Last year one of our big sales is from, is art collector from Vietnam. Thank you.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Amazing. Great to hear. This is a collective effort, I feel that we were talking about, you know, the macro global economy in Asia. I still feel that once this region is very much together, we are still on a growing trend. The art market and the ecosystem is still expanding. I recently I’ve been contemplating, okay, what is this growth like in Asia? I feel that the growth is less to do with a vertical growth in terms of value, but we still see the horizontal growth in terms of volume, the coverage, the younger new generation of collectors. I feel that sometimes like using the word young is not, you know, accurate enough because a lot of.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Emerging, let’s say emerging collectors.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Exactly! The emerging collectors coming from other collectibles, either it’s antiquity or Chao Wan collectibles, designs, they all, contemporary art is still a kind of a new category for them to explore. So, I have the confidence that these experienced collectors, however, coming from kind of other cross collecting sectors, can be someone that we cultivate in the long run.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Okay, so do you think that art fairs are too powerful?

Angelle Siyang-Le: Art fairs?

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes, because you give visibility to the galleries and to the artists. That visibility is in the control of the art fairs. And don’t you think that art fairs today, in the art ecosystem, they’re too powerful?

Angelle Siyang-Le: Well, my CEO may say something different than I do, but. But as Art Basel Hong Kong, I always.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): No, you have to take yourself now outside being the director of Hong Kong, you have to speak as a neutral thing, a neutral thing,

Angelle Siyang-Le: I always say. I actually say that to my global teams as well. In Asia, we do things slightly more differently.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Completely!
Angelle Siyang-Le: We have that eastern philosophy. You know, we don’t think, we don’t think competition is necessarily confrontation, confrontational force. We actually feel that it’s a strength because we actually, as a continent, as a regent, we love working together.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes.

Angelle Siyang-Le: So as from where I stand, either as an art fair organiser or somebody that just, you know, follows the Art Bazel brand, I do feel that Art Basel in this particular region is a facilitator for the art ecosystem. What we do is bringing everyone from the creative fields, or anyone has an interest to collaborate with the creative fields onto one platform and just find, seek for, you know, the future, possible potential collaborations. And all we want is one thing is to raise the awareness of art and culture in Asia.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): But the visibility of any artist, any galleries is based on you guys, right? So obviously, I mean it becomes a very important, powerful platform. And especially in this art ecosystem. Always I’ve been feeling is one important issue is why is the world always have, you know, when we talk about colonisation is wrong. So why do we have one culture? Because we have a colonisation of one culture. And that colonisation, which I said is we are voluntarily following that culture. So an art fair, okay, you select the galleries, you select the artist. What is it going through? Is it through a Western land? Because it is in the west, it is validated because, I mean, we have a problem is because we are Asians, we still, I mean the whole world. I’m not just talking Asia, African, everything. We look at the west as the leading Western cultural powerhouse.
Angelle Siyang-Le: It’s the benchmark!
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Right, so art needs, needs a validation of the museum in the West. Luckily now we have M+. Luckily we have now a very healthy infrastructure that allowed us. Eventually we will have a voice. But up to today, everything we do, we need this validation, including affairs and choosing artists, choosing galleries. Am I right?

Angelle Siyang-Le: Absolutely. I will have to agree because we said that a lot in the past years that even artists or art professionals in our region. We learned, like myself, I studied art history, like Asia’s art history in the west, in England. So yes, it is very much the benchmarked. What do you, how do you coin an artist – the, an international artist? Because this artist has done, you know, whichever shows in the west, in those, you know, prominent institutions. However, I feel the changes, it’s taking place very slowly. However, surely, we have this sector, core insight and previously, it is a sector that is designated for Asian artists. And at the very beginning we didn’t really quite know how-to, how-to kind of conceptualise this sector for a tighter curatorial theme. Other than Asian artists, what else can we introduce to the sector? And over the years this particular sector, insights – almost starting to build its own theme. Majority of the presentations now in this particular sector has, has a relevance from the Asian historical context. I almost feel that as Asian galleries or galleries presenting Asian artists, they want to speak the Asian narratives from their own perspectives. They want to educate the rest of the world from their own history. So there is a kind of a two way education now happening. You can see that from especially Art Basel Hong Kong Fair, that when we invite international audience onto our platform, we want them to hear our voice rather than just us learning from them. So, there is a kind of a bridge offering exchange that is happening both ways.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I think we both share the same thing. We think our cultural narrative is really important. And I, you know, I really enjoy when we look through, through the inside or whatever, it’s that cultural narrative which is missing because I always feel that, why, you know. I understand before when you don’t have a museum, you don’t have an institution because you don’t have a healthy infrastructure. And when I look around the whole of Asia, you see that, that you really need to have a very powerful museum that can be at par with the West. If you have that, then your artist doesn’t really need to go to the west to be celebrated. It could be doing the same thing here. So with that in context, do you think that Hong Kong will thrive?

Angelle Siyang-Le: Oh, absolutely. It’s already, you know, the speed of its development is incredible. I often use this taxi storeys, which some of your audience might have heard of before, which is, I came back to Hong Kong around 14 years ago, took a taxi and asking the taxi to go to Art Basel. And the taxi driver was asking me what do I do here? And then I said, oh, I work for, you know, the art, art industry. And the taxi driver was telling me that, oh say la la. Have you, haven’t you heard? Hong Kong is a cultural desert.
And that was for almost 14 years ago. And then fast forward, only a couple of years ago I took another taxi, going to Art Basel and asking the taxi driver where I’m going. And the taxi driver was like, oh, you’re going to Art Basel as a taxi driver. And the taxi driver was telling me that, oh, you know, I heard there are a lot of Japanese Korean galleries this year. Maybe, maybe the information was slightly off, but the fact that he knows about what Art Basel does.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): And he held the conversation as well, which is interesting.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Exactly. So I feel that Hong Kong, I always think that, how do you call yourself a cultural hub? It’s not only the infrastructure and the hardware, it’s how much people are aware, the importance of art and culture can support economic impact and how much the population believes in the power of art. And I do feel that Hong Kong people do have the sense of understanding not only just art and culture, but even contemporary art, which most people would say it’s what is it? You know. And I feel that the like the very kind of a opened mindset and the diverse culture of Hong Kong built, built for it, this foundation to become a cultural hub. And what, what I’m saying is I don’t think there’s, Hong Kong is the only hub in Asia. However, I truly, truly believe that Hong Kong is the international cultural hub for Asia.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Woo Bravo! I also believe in that because I think Hong Kong is the first and only city up to now, who has this completely very healthy infrastructure. Now we have, we have an artist community, we have galleries community. And then we have not just M+, now we have Tai Kwun, we have the Hong Kong Museum. Even the Palace Museum is contributing.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Yes.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): So we really have really healthy infrastructure that, that will allow us to, to be really even more important in the next 10 years.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Absolutely. I think Hong Kong now also in the past, the Hong Kong artists, the artist scenes, they’re very quiet in the past, like never really heard so much happenings coming out of like the Hong Kong artists community. But in the past few years, you know, these Hong Kong artists, homegrown artists like Samson Young, Trevor Yeung to Leelee Chant, all these artists are making international exposures, doing art fairs and museum shows all over the world. And they also bring a lot of attractions from the west to Hong Kong. I think that also says a lot about the position of Hong Kong.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): So how do you see that you’re, you know, having Art Basel Hong Kong and how do you see in 10 years time, you know, with all the technology, you know. I mean, we are going through another phase. We don’t know how and how this phase is right in. I mean when you go to Europe or go to America, they all talk about Giant C and that they all only want immersive art. They want experience, they don’t want to continue the collection from the parents. And then there is this technology coming in. So there’s a big impact on this art infrastructure in this art ecosystem. And how do you see the ABHK is going to be in the next 10 years.

Angelle Siyang-Le: From a brand perspectives, as Art Basel, we would like to be understood as an intersection in the creative fields, where this ecosystem, so called art ecosystem can make use of our platform to meet with new audience and expand opportunities wherever fields they’re coming from. And as Hong Kong, I feel that actually not only as Hong Kong, as all our host city, where we have five different art fairs around the world, I feel that the cities that we work with will also naturally become where creativities congregate. And Hong Kong being the international hub for Asia, leading to it culture and many other great strengths, I feel that Hong Kong and the Art Basel brand will go hand in hand and truly be the market leader, be the cultural leader for its region.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Then do you think that the art fairs format will change? Because in 10 years, I mean technology is coming in very strongly. How do you imagine in 10 years time, how would it be?

Angelle Siyang-Le: We have been adapting already as an art fair. Recently we’ve been saying that Art Basel is not only a buying and selling platform. It’s almost like a community builder. People look to us to kind of like either joining a new community or bringing in more people to this community. So we are kind of like a platform also acting as a community builder. And even the way we select galleries has also, you know, adapting with the new sector Zero 10, which is dedicated to digital art. The way the works are coming into these sectors are completely different.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Completely different. Of course it’s digital. Yeah.

Angelle Siyang-Le: You know your gallery sectors, which is a very more like rigid, very hard to get in. But Zero10 is more dynamic. It’s really what’s happening now is what is the most relevant digital artworks in terms of terms of technology, in terms of concept and it’s more direct, more decentralised. So yeah, we are also adapting and I feel, personally I am amazed how much a brand like Art Basel which has been running for almost 60 years is open to adapt such new format of collaboration.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I think their adapt is like a good old days photography community and into art fairs. I was told that before Art Basel never have photography. But then they embrace because art world is always changing, emerging, emerging and it’s always changing. So next thing I want to discuss with you is about this. Okay. We touch on the topic about western validation. Do you think that we will be able when 10 years time we will stand by ourselves and we can tell the centre of gravity will be moving to the east. That’s what I’ve been reading. The centre gravity of the art market moving to the east, shifting to the east. Comment.

Angelle Siyang-Le: As a true believer of the east, obviously that’s my wish. I feel that in terms of the centre of the world from where we are now, I feel there might be multiple centres.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Because today the centre of the art market or the art world is in USA.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Oh, absolutely.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I mean, we cannot even deny it. Right. So would that be shifting to the east or, you know, what is, what is even better is that when we, they will follow us, following us to choose the artist which we, we celebrate and they will be celebrating the same instead of us going to the other side. Because after all, art, art is about culture. Right? It’s connecting culture.

Angelle Siyang-Le: And art is connecting people. People is culture. I would say that, like I mentioned, I would say that probably in 10 years time we wouldn’t just have one New York. My hope is that, you know, Asia’s market continue to grow, which has been like steadily growing and with the, you know, with, with a greater macro-economic picture, which is hard to expect, I feel that the growth of culture might lead away more so than before. For example, Hong Kong, you know, it used to be the financial sector. Well, I believe that is still the financial sector, but now.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): We have to believe it is a financial sector.

Angelle Siyang-Le: But now other than having the title being a financial sector, it’s also the cultural hub. So, I feel that maybe in the next 10 years in Asia, the soft power.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): We can define our own cultural narrative.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Yes. And then the soft power and the recognition of soft power will be growing tremendously in the next 10 years. And at least that’s what I want to see as a cultural professional.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Okay. Okay. AI can write concept very easily. Do you feel the conceptual arts still could survive? I mean, when you can just have AI doing all your concept and most of the artists today under the western education curriculum, they cannot even paint. Right. So do you think this is what I believe? I believe in 10 years, 20 years time, the craft of painting, the craft of doing sculpture, your hands will be very important. Instead of today it becomes a low art in the western hierarchy of art form. Right. So what do you think about this AI invading. Invading this art ecosystem?

Angelle Siyang-Le: Yes. There is no way to stop.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): No, no way to stop. The only thing we can do is to embrace and celebrate.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Exactly. So instead of fighting against it, I do embrace it. By obviously accepting the digital projects, coming onto our platform, embracing it, promoting it. Also, you know, raising the understanding of it. I’m not a tech expert myself, but I’m a mother of two young boys who very naturally just connected so much better with technology.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): When you grow up in an inner tech world, you are very easily.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Yeah. The way they think will be very different to how I was raised. Things will happen much faster. And I can already tell that this is the era that these generations would grow up and they will naturally have a much greater connection compared to myself with digital and digital art. Whether or not, like Generative.
Pearl Lam (林明珠): Would conceptual art still survive?
Angelle Siyang-Le: Yes, because digital is also supporting by concepts.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): But AI can write concept.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Now, I do feel that, you know, like coming to my boys, what I try to kind of educate them is to become a critical thinker. Right?

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes. That is the most important thing.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Yeah. Because academically I can be a bit more relaxed. I’m not. I’m not Tiger mom myself. I can’t be. I don’t have the time to be. But being a critical thinker is essential for them to conceptualise with the support of AI and with the support of technology. And I feel that artists in, in an optimistic way, artists can use technology to expand their artists.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I agree. I agree.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Yeah. Either as a medium or as a tour or, you know, you know, ride with that movement. It’s really down to how the artists treat their works with the support of tech.
Can you discuss your outfit for coming to Art Basel, please? Every time. You always have, like this fabulous look and then you always have your identity and your styles and you’re like an icon. At least for us, the Asia art scene. So. Yeah, tell us. I’m sure everyone wants to know more about you.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): In our gallery, we have a dress code. Especially for openings and art fairs, we can only dress in black. Sometimes I cheat, so sometimes I do wear white, but I never wear bright colours. So I will. I will find whatever it is black that I can. But my, but my signature is my bracelet. It’s always my bracelet. It’s always my bracelet. But. But this is our dress code because. Because what I, you know, I’ve seen some galleries opening. When I see some of the, of the gallery staff wearing these shocking pink colour, I mean, it’s completely clash with the. With the artwork. So I have made a rule that exhibition opening, art fairs, this is what we have to do. Because we are not the main character. The character is the artworks. We are only supporting it.

Angelle Siyang-Le: Amazing. I love that.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): And what today’s conversation reminded us is that culture is never static. It moves through artists, through ideas, through cities, through cities where all these ideas intersect. And increasingly, Hong Kong is one of these places. But I want to ask one question, is whether Hong Kong would redefine an art ecosystem or is Hong Kong going to continue simply to follow this conversation? After all, the storey of art never remains one place. It emerges where art and culture meet. The power of art connects all culture. Thank you, Angelle!

Angelle Siyang-Le: Thank you, Pearl!