Pearl Lam (林明珠): This is the Pearl Lam Podcast. Today I’m in Miami, I’m here with one of my favourite people, Don and Mera Rubell. Here I’m in their home and just look at it, paintings everywhere. So now Don, Mera, I think most of there’s many audience who’s not from and from the art world. Can you briefly talk about you and the Rubell Museum and your Rubell Collection, about you?

Mera Rubell: Where do we begin? We have to begin.

Don Rubell: We’re married about 60 years and we’ve been collecting about 59 years and 11 months, so we can’t say we always collected.

Mera Rubell: There’s no anecdote for this addiction.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I think everybody who comes to Miami, the first thing that they would love to see is the Rubell Museum. And it’s really breathtaking, especially yesterday. And I, I haven’t been here for 10 years. And when I went to your new museum, I was flabbergasted. Now, now one of the questions I always wanted to ask is I know you got married and during your first year of marriage you start collecting. I mean when you met you two share the interests, the passion in in in art?

Don Rubell: Absolutely not, but.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): How did it all start?

Mera Rubell: Well, it started. Don was a medical student and I was a teacher, Head Start teacher and he was medical school. I was teaching and taking a master’s degree in education at that time. And we were just busy, busy studying all the time. But we managed to take long walks to just break up the study the whole time because we got married in August. He started medical school in September, so we were married the whole time through his entire medical school. Because he was a mathematician first, then he decided to go to medical school. It’s a long story.

Don Rubell: The neighbourhood we lived in has now become Tribeca. At that time it really wasn’t, but it was during a recession in the city and the artists were able to rent storefront where they lived and worked. And when we would study, we would every two or three hours we’d take a break and walk around the neighbourhood and, and we ran, we’d run into various artists.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I see.

Mera Rubell: So we started experiencing, we had no money, I was earning $100 a week. But on zero money we found a universe of talent and brilliant people who engaged us and challenged us with the work they were doing.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): So every day you’re walking past, you’re seeing the studios, you’re seeing the artists working. So you went and visit them. You start a conversation with them.

Don Rubell: So one day we knocked on.

Mera Rubell: No, no, no, that’s not how it’s… Don! It was one person smoking outside that said why don’t you come in and see my studio?

Don Rubell: Really.

Mera Rubell: There were other doors but we knocked. But this I remember. So some detail. It’s 60 years.

Pearl Lam (林明珠):  Oh my God.

Mera Rubell: So yeah, it was the first artist was smoking outside because they were living illegally and working in these storefronts. So we enter the space and it literally opened a universe to us because imagine walking off a street into seeing extraordinary artwork being made right there.

Don Rubell: So then what happened is we loved it and we went back another time and another time and another time. And then he turned to us finally and said, don’t you think you really should buy a painting of the house? And I think Mera said, said we’d love to, but I make $100 a week. And and he doesn’t earn anything.  He said, that’s all right, pay it off over time.

Mera Rubell: So that was our the wallow moment where we realised that a payment plan.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Could be arranged.

Mera Rubell: Could be arranged and the artist was delighted. We it started a relationship. We were there every week to give.

Don Rubell: Tell her the punchline, though, he finally said. He said, well, what can you afford? We said $5 a week. He said OK. I think that artists were so lonely in these days today was happy to have someone come every week of.

Mera Rubell: Course, no. But you know what, even at $5 a week, it paid off 100 dollars, $100 drawing, it paid off. And then and of course the numbers got bigger and bigger. And I can report that to this day, we wouldn’t have this collection if it wasn’t for the generosity of the artists, of the galleries working with us on continuous payment, payment plans. I mean, I think all collect. I think collectors.

Don Rubell: Actually, in 60 years we’ve only had one week that we didn’t owe the art world money, and we were so uncomfortable that week that he immediately went out.

Mera Rubell: If I remember correctly, the beautiful collection of Chinese art that we have from you was always on a very generous payment plan.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Of course you know to be in your collection. I think it’s the honour of all the artists and us as well. I mean to working with you. It’s delightful. But I love the way how you go in go in, you looked at it, Within, you know that time Jason wasn’t there. You two discussed for a short time. You know what you want. I mean, it takes confidence. Now another question is, which I hope that it will inspire all the young collectors because it really you need balls and you need confidence to know what you want. All right, you go in and you went to one artist’s place. You look at the paintings for several weeks and you know what you want and you’re confident.

Mera Rubell: We actually don’t know what we want. We don’t even know what we’re looking for. It’s not like what we know. It’s not like we walk in and we know what we’re looking for. That’s I think that it’s it’s about the match. There is something happens when we walk, when we see something that intrigues us, something there’s some chemical reaction that happens. And of course, in our case, the chemical reaction has to be the both of us. And often Jason’s there too. Now we travelled with that, the two of us and we also travelled with Jason. So, you know, there is a reaction between the two of us and the three of us. And it, it is a mystery how that all works. I can’t say that it’s.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I’ll go back with Jason and how.

Mera Rubell: You all work.

Pearl Lam: And I’ve personal witnessed for two weeks about about all the dynamics, but going back because today many of the collectors, they don’t look at the art to view it. They look at the numbers, they look at the auction result. So you guys were buying from your heart. I mean, don’t you find that now, nowadays the world has changed many, many collectors, they don’t buy from the heart.

Don Rubell: I think no matter what the reason someone starts collecting, it’s such an incredibly seductive.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Exactly, but it takes a lot of confidence.

Don Rubell: But after a while, they learn to buy from their heart.

Mera Rubell: I think they’re eventually seduced, but there are those people that come to the art has become such a global economy in a way too, that you’re definitely going to have people who start or are attracted to its economics, you know? But like Don said, I think it’s powerful enough to seduce eventually. And if you don’t get seduced, your children will become seduced because all of a sudden your children will think you’re very, very cool for collecting art. And you, you’re like kind of surprised. Wow. I, I was just thinking of making a, a buck out of a, a painting. But all of a sudden my children think that’s very cool that I have this, this artwork. But it’s, I think people come to art for many different reasons. And I don’t think I’m not particularly interested in, in judging them. I think ultimately if people dig into what makes art, I think it’s very seductive and an emotional level on a human level.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): So go back to your good old days. So after the first artist, then you start going around the Tribeca and looking at different artists.

Don Rubell: We continued looking. I think for 60 years we’ve been looking and looking and looking and never stopping.

Mera Rubell: Looking and reading and studying and communicating. And of course, our greatest source of information is from fellow artists.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I love one story you both told me about going to Jeff Koons and then you have to carry your own own artwork work done. Can you repeat that? And how you gave up one of the artwork because it was too heavy?

Don Rubell: Jeff Koons was something else. Jeff Koons had his first exhibition he made himself and it’s right across the street from a men’s clothing store in New York called Bonnie’s. And he rented downtown and he rented this loft, this apartment, not even a loft on the second floor, maybe even with the third floor. And he showed his what he called free afterwards, his pre new pieces which were brand new appliances with lights behind them and we.

Mera Rubell: Well appliances like washing machine. It was a washing machine, a dryer.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): And then you go to Hoover.

Mera Rubell: Hoover, right?

Don Rubell: Right. The most dangerous one is he had a refrigerator and we really liked this refrigerator and we told him we’d be happy to take it. He said OK.

Mera Rubell: OK, take it.

Don Rubell: I said, what do you mean? He said, well, it’s kind of like cash and carry you the refrigerator.

Mera Rubell: It was we didn’t, we didn’t end that. We didn’t. It didn’t happen. I know I at that time we wouldn’t have had a place to even put it.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I I I Don was telling this story is how can I carry this?

Mera Rubell: Refrigerator. Exactly.

Don Rubell: We tried, but we weren’t even able to get it out of the room.

Mera Rubell: There was one time where we bought a sculpture in California that came to our house and the only place that it could fit was to take over our entire living room. So we actually got rid of all the living room furniture to put the sculpture in. And eventually, of course, we, you know, we lost our furniture, we’ve lost rooms in our house to accommodate art. That’s why eventually we ended up, we feel very, we feel very fortunate to have, you know, found the kind of space that you saw in Allapatha, you know, 100,000 square feet where we can take our imagination.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): And now and now you also have a museum in Washington.

Don Rubell: Yes.

Mera Rubell: It took 14, almost 16 years to make that happen because it was a dilapidated, abandoned junior high school. And it meant a lot to the neighbourhood because it it was a historical black boys junior high school where Marvin Gaye attended, where some teacher in that school said Marvin, you’re going to be somebody someday. That’s why our first show was called What’s Going On, because the song that the world, yeah, which the whole world knew. So and What’s Going On coincidentally, we had a work by Keith Herring and he he dedicates this work to Don’s brother, But he said I was making this work, listening to Marvin Gaye over and over again to What’s Going On. So it was a, so in the first show, we had the Keith Herring What’s Going On? The the artwork that he made listening to Marvin Gaye’s music.

Don Rubell: And we had Marvin Gaye’s music in the background.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes. And I remember last night you was telling me that and that museum was old school, right In each of the schoolroom. You you have an institutional classroom.

Don Rubell: It’s perfect schoolrooms make the best galleries. I don’t know why people waste time building galleries

Mera Rubell: All schools are perfect, so it’s they’re old classrooms and their teachers in those days in those days, a classroom would also have a teacher’s office next to it, which smaller space, but each classroom had a teacher’s office and the combination of the larger class size of the classroom and the intimate space of the teachers creates wonderful spaces for all sorts of intimate presentations of the.

Don Rubell: Some pretty big installation.

Mera Rubell: Big and small. It creates a very interesting dynamic between larger spaces and smaller spaces to show the art.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): So in New York you were at the time when you were collecting an art, it was really the scene, all the artists, the great artists scene has moved to America and they were all in New York, right?

Mera Rubell: I wouldn’t say they moved there. I think they lived there.

Pearl Lam: They lived there.

Mera Rubell: Actually, no, that’s not true. Actually, you’re right. A lot of the young people in America would go to New York because it was the place where you could be free and express yourself. There was no way that Keith Haring was going to be Keith Haring in Potsdam, Pennsylvania. So it was a place where you came to be free, a place to express yourself, a place to join with other people like yourself, to explore life. And it was a very, very dynamic moment. A dangerous moment, I might add.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, at the time time I was when I was reading about New York, it was dangerous.

Don Rubell: Well, no, it was more dangerous economically than physically. I don’t think we were a threatened physically, but there was too much good art.

Mera Rubell: Well, I don’t know what I mean when.

Pearl Lam: New York went bankrupt, right?

Mera Rubell: When people lost faith in the city and it there was there was a sense that New York was dangerous. But that’s why when these artists, there was a scene happened in New York where it was a place to be with other creative people and, and we happened to be there at that moment.

Don Rubell: I remember we we had 1-2 month where we found Cindy Sherman, Robert Longo, Jack Goldstein, Richard Prince, all in a one month.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): How do you afford to buy all of them?

Mera Rubell: No. Well, we don’t. Well, first of all, Cindy was too much time. Wait, wait, Cindy, time. But Cindy was $200.

Pearl Lam: Even at that time.

Don Rubell: She was $50. I’m sorry.

Mera Rubell: No, I’m sorry. It was 50 dollars, $50.00. The Cindy Sherman that we had was 50. Her, you know, classic piece was $50. Jean Michel was $1500, which we bought on a payment plan. We went into the into Nina Nozai’s basement. This was 1981. Because Keith, who we met earlier, told us that the most talented person on the face of the earth right now was his friend Jean Michel Bazca.

Pearl Lam: That means that the artist would introduce you to other artists.

Mera Rubell: Which still goes on. Which still goes on to this day. So when Keith told us that he had this extraordinary talent, the friend that we had to meet, he said, well, go to Anina Nozai’s gallery. She gave him a space in the basement. So when we arrived, when we arrived, we said, oh, Keith sent us to see this artist. She said, what artist? She basically was trying to keep him in the basement. See, he was like locked up, but he was metaphorically locked up in the basement. And she was at first annoyed that who told you she had the secret talented person working in the basement? And then we finally had to convince her. I said, well, Keith Haring, he’s his best friend. And he said we should come here and he’s in the basement. Finally she let she opened the door and we went down these steep wooden stairs. And there he was painting a painting which is now in our collection. Birds and money.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, I just saw it.

Mera Rubell: Yeah, that painting was in that basement.

Pearl Lam: So at the time it was $1500. But you start working already, you’re a doctor already. So you make enough money. You can buy several artists, not just one.

Don Rubell: Well, that that was our problem. We never stopped at one.

Mera Rubell: Let’s see if I know you.

Pearl Lam: Guys all together like 5-10 paintings.

Don Rubell: It’s even worse than that in some cases. I think Keith, we got up to 85 pieces.

Pearl Lam: 85 pieces. You’re a little bit greedy, you know.

Don Rubell: No, which is not too small.

Mera Rubell: No, no, I think, I think what happens is they were relationships and the artist kept growing. I wouldn’t say it was never philanthropic. It was weak. We were so.

Don Rubell: It was greedy. Yeah.

Mera Rubell: Not greedy, no work. It’s not greedy. It was exciting to be following the artist and and the other thing is every time we went to the studio, we saw something fresh and something new and, and we couldn’t resist it. Like one time we saw something that we put on the roof of our car to take it back home. He said take it out because.

Don Rubell: I actually carried it.

Mera Rubell: No, but also he wanted more space in the studio. He, he had this tiny little space and you know, he said, oh, take it, please. I’ll just make more room with my studio.

Pearl Lam: You must be very sad when he pass away. Oh, is he very close to you?

Mera Rubell: Very, very. He invited his his family and a few closest friends to be in his apartment in New York the night he died. And we were there, yeah, in fact, he already.

Pearl Lam: He knew that the following day he was going to.

Don Rubell: Well, yeah.

Mera Rubell: He no, OK, well you have to take it back a few. So he found out in the fall, a few months before that he was sick. For a young person to be in the 30s, not 30, he was.

Don Rubell: He died of 29. I was 20.

Pearl Lam: 29.

Mera Rubell: So Keith called us up and said I’m, I’m, I’m. It looks like I’m gonna die.

Don Rubell: Well, no, I was even. He invited us to lunch, the whole family to lunch.

Mera Rubell: And he insisted on treating us. He.

Don Rubell: Insisted on treating us. When an artist pays for lunch, you know he’s.

Mera Rubell: You have to be suspicious. They have to be suspicious. So we’re having lunch with him and he says I’m organising a trip to Dusseldorf to celebrate with my dear friends. My life’s work. I said life’s work. He said yes, I’m it looks like I’m. I’m going to, you know, I’m going to die very shortly. But his, he spoke like a person that lived a long time. He spoke like this old wise man who was not afraid of death. He was, he was ready to to step into the next world, so to speak. He was.

Don Rubell: Actually, there’s a story that follows that he that same day we were all sitting and he was in his bedroom and we were in.

Mera Rubell: This is the night the night before he passed away in the.

Don Rubell: Morning. Yeah, he asked. He asked if I could come into his room and I came in and he said tomorrow morning at 5:00 in the morning, I’m going to wrap myself in a sheet, take my lazier and get him pointed up. But. And sure enough, at 5:00 the next morning he died and we never found out what happened with the lazier.

Mera Rubell: Except for wait, a few months ago, there’s a book that just came out and Keith Haring and the writer interviewed us and we told him the story and he said, I’ve been. And then he, he, he was working on this book for a few years now. And right before the book went to in the press, he called to say that you won’t believe this, but I finally found that where the lazier is.

Don Rubell: I was so.

Mera Rubell: Disappointed they couldn’t find the lazier.

Don Rubell: Because I was hoping we would go. He really didn’t.

Mera Rubell: Can’t. No. Are you OK? OK. Are you OK? Yeah, he’s back.

Pearl Lam: Sorry audience, Don got very excited, has been playing tennis every day in the summer and he pulled his back. So to sit here, to go through this podcast is tough.

Don Rubell: But for Pearl, nothing is too tough.

Pearl Lam: So the era of the 80s to the early 90s? In 92, you moved to Miami, right? Yeah. Why did you choose Miami then? Because the 80s must be so exciting in the New York art scene.

Mera Rubell: Well, you’re talking about the 80’s, the 90s and Fast forward. Fast forward, the parents are living.

Don Rubell: Answer the question.

Mera Rubell: Well, I’m going to tell you, Fast forward, the parents are living in Miami and we’re spending some time more time here. And there was some opportunities here that didn’t exist in New York because at at that moment in time, I became focused on real estate. And when I discovered South Beach, it was extraordinary. You could it was like empty build, empty building one after the other that you.

Pearl Lam: Oh it was just empty?

Mera Rubell: Yes, empty buildings, abandoned. You know, just like luck shut down buildings. And it was, it was some, it was a challenge because it was something that like all this art deco that was just sitting here. So I and because I was at that moment involved in real estate, I saw an opportunity and then, you know, Don continued to practise medicine. I became focused on real estate in Miami.

Pearl Lam: So you actually.

Mera Rubell: And then my children joined me and then and then Don had to retire to join me.

Pearl Lam: Don has to come to find.

Don Rubell: You. They all ran away. What could I do?

Pearl Lam: So my God, not, not just that you have an eye for art, you have an eye for real estate.

Mera Rubell: Well, anyone who, I think artists teach you this, I mean, if you spend enough time with artists, you realise that you have to go. The frontier is always in the invisible where other people don’t see it and you see it, it come, it becomes very clear to you. And artists have taught me that you, you, you can’t always go where other people go.

Don Rubell: You should go where the artists go. Yeah, that’s and I remember we were in Beijing, you know, the first time we went there was the 3rd or 4th ring and then the artist moved to the fifth ring, the 6th ring. And by the time we there the last time, I think they were in the 7th.

Mera Rubell: Ring 8th Think about, yeah, think of how many rings we have to go to to the artist. But that’s where the opportunity lies, and we learned a lot from the artist.

Pearl Lam: But when we talk about.

Mera Rubell: And the galleries by the galleries. Yeah, the artists follow the galleries and the galleries. And you know, collectors, if you pay attention, you have something to learn from it.

Pearl Lam: Absolutely, absolutely. But when you look at how you came here is another risk of doing a property right?

Don Rubell: Not enough to realise it’s a risk.

Pearl Lam: You just view it and then you saw it.

Don Rubell: It, and we saw it and we believed it.

Pearl Lam: You believed it?

Mera Rubell: Well, I think the scale was here. New York City, we lived in, you know, we were in New York for 30 years before we got down here. And I mean, our married life was in New York for a good 30 years and the scale of New York made things seem out of reach. I think that’s one of the reasons why artists always go their frontiers because it’s it’s doable. And I I became totally infatuated with south beaches and then and then of course, Don, my whole family realised, wow, this is incredible. You can just pick off build. I mean, I’m just sorry we didn’t do more because the opportunity was there. It’s just that the our commitment and invest and paying for art always limited. But if it wasn’t for the art, God knows how many it is true before we would have done. But I we can’t.

Don Rubell: Regret. The art is much better than the building.

Mera Rubell: Listen, every time we regret not owning this building that we could have with that building, we could have we say well, wait a minute. But that’s the reason why we have assessment ground. That’s the reason we have a key for, you know, any, any one of the artists.

Pearl Lam: But it’s true because when when you think about the 90s and all of a sudden Versace, all these that fashion designer, musician, they all started in the 90s talking about Miami.

Mera Rubell: Well, it was a very dynamic place here. The modelling industry, again, artists, you know this. In this case, it was the modelling industry, the fashion industry, the they, they, they fell in love with the visuals of this place because it was both a paradise, but it was a kind of a paradise in, in this repair. It was, it was kind of happy, but sad because you saw this magnificent architecture and the buildings were boarded up. So it created an exciting backdrop for fashion to stage exciting events.

Pearl Lam: And I recently read that the Art Basel Miami Beach is because Mera you were pushing for to have the Art Basel Miami.

Mera Rubell: Beach. I can’t take all the credit myself, but I I.

Pearl Lam: You were very.

Mera Rubell: I was very aggressive, persuasive and aggressive, Jason. But interestingly enough, Jason gave the final the final inspiration that closed the deal because we’re all sitting with the Art Basel people on Lincoln Road and at that time it was Lorenzo

Pearl Lam: Yeah, Lorenzo Rudolph.

Mera Rubell: Who actually, you know, and it was Sam was the creative director. But Lorenzo said, listen, at the end of the day there, even at that time, he said there’s so many art fairs in that day. He thought there were a lot of you can imagine what he had about today. He said there were the art fair here and they’re here. Why should this be so? You know, why are people going to come here? So Jason said, and we’re sitting at Rose and Nelle on Lincoln Road having a plate of pasta. And Jason said, you know, he said if you put the galleries on the sand on the beach, the first art fair that has that’s on the beach.

Don Rubell: And he said, well, how can we do that? And he pointed to the container. The boats carrying containers, he said, use the containers and they could do it that way.

Mera Rubell: Yeah, so put containers. So I don’t know if the first Art Basels that actually had containers on the beach, on the sand, and each gallery had a container with air conditioning.

Pearl Lam: Oh, that’s that’s wild.

Mera Rubell: It was great. So I.

Pearl Lam: I Love it. This is much better

Mera Rubell: So he said, well, I don’t think, I don’t think we can put Picasso’s. I don’t think we could put Picasso’s in these in these containers. He said, you know what, we’ll put the Picasso’s in the art at in the convention centre and we’ll give and all these the galleries, the young galleries, will each have a container. So you had containers with the young art, with people sitting with umbrellas outside?

Don Rubell: And the sands, you remember that.

Pearl Lam: I remember when I used to visit there was one session of the and of the Art Basel was in the containers.

Mera Rubell: Exactly right. Yes, yes.

Don Rubell: And it was the most popular, so they had to do away with it.

Mera Rubell: By the way, cool. By the way, coincidentally, this sculpture that’s in this room came out out of one of those containers.

Pearl Lam: What a dream because I was I mean I just read and I was told that without you you push it without the Rubells pushing it

Mera Rubell: We even had to tell what?

Don Rubell: Well, actually the most difficult part was not even convincing Art Basel. We had to convince the city.

Mera Rubell: Because they had another fair here which was coming here over the years, but of course it didn’t have the prestige of Art Basel and we had to take I talking about forcefulness. We at some point organised commissioners and the mayor of Miami Beach to go to Art Basel to for them to experience.

Pearl Lam: You are really the godmother of Art Basel Miami Beach?

Mera Rubell: Then it took a whole village, then a lot of the community really championed around Art Basel.

Pearl Lam: Because in Miami at that time, it’s like Hong Kong before, they didn’t understand what an art fair could bring. You know, the tourism, the people, they have no ideas. So it must be like Miami as.

Mera Rubell: Well, so did you champion the Hong Kong?

Pearl Lam: I didn’t. I didn’t. They just chose at the time, I think Hong Kong. I think at the time they wanted Asia. So when Art Basel wanted Asia, there was Hong Kong,

Mera Rubell: We had gone to Shanghai. We went to the first fair.

Pearl Lam: But that was, yeah, that wasn’t.

Mera Rubell: Lorenzo, by the way, I think.

Pearl Lam: Lorenzo left Art Basel.

Mera Rubell: To do it, yes.

Pearl Lam: But when Art Basel came to Hong Kong, they would they choose Hong Kong because Hong Kong is a perfect infrastructure. There is no import tax, there’s no import duties, there’s no VAT and it’s free. So I mean, there’s no censorship. So it was a perfect place. But then there was this art fair. So they went and bought this art fair.

Mera Rubell: But you know, but when you talk about Asia, you cannot talk about Asia and art without talking about your living room.

Pearl Lam: Haha! My living room, my long table.

Mera Rubell: Wait, is it? Wait, is it, is it a living room or a dining room? I don’t know what.

Pearl Lam: It is the living room, but there’s also a dining room.

Mera Rubell: What’s the size of that table?

Pearl Lam: I can sit 66 people.

Mera Rubell: 66 people, so you can’t really.

Don Rubell: Hungry people.

Pearl Lam: 66 is not 80.

Mera Rubell: You haven’t been to Asia and you haven’t experienced art in Asia and you haven’t experienced the vitality of art in Asia without being at that table with all the people that you invite and feed the most exotic, amazing food.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, but I’m still.

Mera Rubell: Still have those? Yeah, the.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, the hands the hands with the with the I’m still waiting for you to bring your God. I mean, your granddaughter is your whole another generation to come.

Don Rubell: Well, he has one more year till his Chinese is fluent. He’s only 12.

Mera Rubell: Yeah, well, yeah.

Don Rubell: When he gets to 13. Yeah, we’ll be able to bring.

Pearl Lam: You know what, it will be fantastic if you can bring your grandson seeing Chinese instead of just going to Chinese restaurants.

Don Rubell: We might leave him there with you.

Mera Rubell: But seriously  Pearl, your dining room sets the tone to the hospitality and to the kind of dialogue where East meets West and the kind of the way it all opened up, you know? Also, you were one of the first gallerists. I mean, at one time we went to all the studios, but the artist did not have gallery representation. That’s something very late.

Pearl Lam: That was really early because I remember your first China trip. You were there by John Wang, right? Yes. And going around that was in 1990s.

Don Rubell: Late 1990s.

Pearl Lam: 1990s It was no early 2000, maybe early to maybe 19.

Don Rubell: I think 1990s!

Mera Rubell: Oh, no, it was 2001. I’ll tell you why, because we were all in the lobby of a hotel when the Twin Towers came down.

Pearl Lam: Because and.

Mera Rubell: We were all in shock then.

Pearl Lam: And then he was going through a very tough time until he met you all. Can you save him and you?

Mera Rubell: I don’t know what that’s career.

Pearl Lam: I hear all the artists complimenting you. I went, I was recently, I was in Ghana, I met with Amoako Boafo and of course the Rubells are mentioned.

Don Rubell: We appreciate that it may, it may not be true.

Mera Rubell: That was magical. Amoako did the most extraordinary residency with us. And the rest is history. That’s all. We cannot, you know, we fell in love with the art. We show the art and the rest, you know. But, but were you? Were you the first gallery?

Pearl Lam: And no, no, no, no, no, no. We have Courtyard Gallery and we have Shanghai from Lawrence.

Mera Rubell: OK, so they were.

Pearl Lam: These are the early.

Mera Rubell: Early, Early, yeah.

Pearl Lam: Very early gallery. So, so Shanghai, we have Shanghai, Lawrence has done a great job. And then and then Beijing, you have the court, the Courtyard Gallery and at the time it was Karen Smith and then later on it was Matt Majo. These are the early gallery.

Mera Rubell: What I liked about our experience with you is that you aren’t just, of course you were eager to show your own art, the art that you were already exhibiting. But what’s so exciting is that you were so open to just go in, to just like go into all these studios and see you were looking at the art at the same time for the first time as we were. So it.

Pearl Lam: By the way, for all the audience to know is around 10 years ago or more than 10 years ago, the Rubell family was with me. We went to a 10 days or two weeks trip around China.

Mera Rubell: In a van. In a van. In aeroplanes too. We took aeroplanes too.

Pearl Lam: Aeroplanes, van, my God, we went to all these trains.

Don Rubell: We did everything but walk.

Pearl Lam: And then the best, the best story was that we were in the car, so after the studio. So we have father, mother, son, daughter-in-law. We were all inside a car, they were discussing about which artists and everything. So we have the mother and the son together and keep on telling the father, no, no, no, no, that’s an over negotiation because apparently Rubell Family Collection must have all the members agree to collect certain artists, right?

Mera Rubell: Yes, it has to be a consensus. And I can’t even imagine what would happen if we didn’t have that, you know, those limitations, I mean, we’d have to have.

Pearl Lam: We have.

Mera Rubell: Thank you.

Don Rubell: It’s very Freudian because my wife always sides with my son.

Pearl Lam: Always, actually.

Mera Rubell: Now that’s not tru.

Pearl Lam: He’s like, oh, there’s always two. Against what?

Don Rubell: But I’m very stubborn, so the funny.

Mera Rubell: Thing is that Jason is always on the side of he’s much more conservative. It’s just the opposite of what you expect. He’s much more conservative because neither one of us has had an art education. I mean, we’ve read all these books, but we we don’t have a formal education, but Jason does. Jennifer has an art education. And I come from a talented family. My father was an artist, my sister’s an artist. I mean, so we come from a talented family, but we never the two of us it’s.

Pearl Lam: It’s not academic.

Mera Rubell: It’s not. So Jason really brings a kind of much more academic point of view.

Don Rubell: To historical.

Mera Rubell: Historical and not academic. Historical. By the way, Jason did Keith Haring’s last interview in Arts Magazine.

Pearl Lam: Amazing.

Mera Rubell: Just as a beautiful interview.

Pearl Lam: Amazing. And Jennifer is a is an artist.

Mera Rubell: Artist is an artist too. And Jennifer excludes herself from collecting, she says you can’t be an artist and be a collector. Well, you can, but she finds that she’s too critical.

Pearl Lam: But it was quite a journey because we eat, we all love food.

Mera Rubell: Oh my God, do you remember when we went to the market and 1st we picked that all the fish and then you picked that the restaurant that that they cooked the fish, they cooked the fish. So in this market you pick the fish, you take a basket, you you literally are in the fish market. So select the fish and then you select the restaurant that makes.

Pearl Lam: It send it send it to the restaurant to cook faster.

Don Rubell: And it was the best fish.

Mera Rubell: Oh my God, that was incredible. It was incredible that where was that wasn’t called, it was Hong Kong.

Pearl Lam: That was Hong Kong. I smuggled you out during one lunch and I said we have to go and.

Mera Rubell: We had some incredible meals. What about the time that we were, we came to this, the driver, we were starving, we didn’t know where to eat. And the driver said, no problem, I’ll take you to my family and we arrive and then we arrive.

Pearl Lam: In a very simple place.

Mera Rubell: Very simple place where they’re cooking, they’re using egg shells for fuel something, no egg shells, and it was crazy.

Don Rubell: Food also was good. I don’t think we had a bad meal in China.

Mera Rubell: It was incredible. We had incredible.

Pearl Lam: But the best thing about the both of you, your whole family, your guys were adventurist. You won’t. I mean you.

Mera Rubell: Miss that?

Pearl Lam: Juicy about food we can eat on the street to to any, as long as it’s good.

Mera Rubell: It was really special. It was really the whole, the whole experience of you were so open to discovering artists together with us, so it was like it was like you were taking. But you weren’t just taking us to artists that you knew. Did we come up?

Pearl Lam: With a you gave us a list.

Mera Rubell: How did you get that not did all this research?

Don Rubell: Jason was doing.

Pearl Lam: Research. You were doing research.

Mera Rubell: And then we gave you a list. Yeah, you give me.

Pearl Lam: A list and we just make make all the appointments.

Don Rubell: But studio. But the most exciting visit was Zhu Jinshi.

Mera Rubell: That was unbelievable. It was very cool.

Pearl Lam: Zhu Jinshi one, I wasn’t there. I saw you in Singapore. You were asking me, oh, where is some young emerging artists? And I said, OK, emerging artists doesn’t need to be to to be limited by age. OK, I’m going to send you some old emerging artists. And when you arrive and I send Xiaomi to to meet up with you and to bring you to all those artists. And then you love the Zhu Jinshi. And Zhu Jinshi again, always thank you because without his work shown during Art Basel Miami, at your and at your museum, he will never have.

Mera Rubell: You know those paintings? Each painting is 800 pounds. OK, that’s one of 3 panels. How that arrived safely in America is a miracle. He did some job packing it up, but those pieces are now they hang permanently in our space because you cannot no, no, but but you don’t want to move it because first of all, the way the paint hangs on the canvas, it requires an ongoing life. Because he likes the dripping, he likes the changing, he likes the dripping, he likes the changing. So to move it would be would be dangerous on the life of this painting. And people are always blown away by the magic this paint still has that smell of paint.

Don Rubell: But it’s interesting he was both the youngest artist and the oldest artist in the exhibition because in spirit he was the youngest.

Mera Rubell: Well, we did it. So we ended up doing a show of 28 Chinese and.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, that Chinese show that went around.

Mera Rubell: Different, yes. It was at museums, it was at the net. It was at the Asian Society in San Francisco. It was in.

Don Rubell: Texas

Mera Rubell: Texas, it’s been, you know, it’s really travelled. It’s people really, they were intrigued to to learn about art rom China.

Pearl Lam: OK, so one question I really need to ask you is you start with American art artists in America, then since when did you start looking at, you know, all, I mean global artists when you, let’s say that when you were in Cologne, you always go to a Cologne Art Fair. So do you actually go to artist studio? Because, rightly says, it’s Dusseldorf right?

Mera Rubell: Yes. Besides, what you’re looking at is Thomas Roof from 1988.

Pearl Lam: So at the time you were.

Mera Rubell: We we were in his OK. We met him at a dinner, I think it was Thomas Schutte’s dinner.

Pearl Lam: OK.

Mera Rubell: And it was an opening for Thomas Schutte. We meet Thomas Roof, and we said, well, what do you make? He says I make these outrageously big.

Don Rubell: You are forgetting the back story.

Mera Rubell: What was the back story?

Don Rubell: What happened is I’d read a book about.

Mera Rubell: Oh, right, right, we.

Don Rubell: Sat for.

Mera Rubell: A portrait.

Don Rubell: He had 27 sittings and he wasn’t able to move. So we met Thomas Roof and we said, you know, how bad could a photographer be? That has to be fast.

Mera Rubell: Because he invited us to have a to have a photograph taken.

Don Rubell: It turned out it took him 8 hours of a million photos before he was satisfied with it.

Pearl Lam: 8 hours.

Mera Rubell: So we had, we thought, oh, a photograph, we’ll just go there. He do. And we never experienced being the subject of an artwork before. So when he said, you know, yeah, come to my studio, which was in Dusseldorf. So we went to a studio and it took 8 hours for him to do these two pictures. So you have a that’s me and it’s Don over there.

Don Rubell: He’s he’s very famous for having done portraits of young people.

Mera Rubell: We were the first.

Don Rubell: Like we were the first older people at that time. We weren’t older and we were the first older and.

Mera Rubell: How old were we there?

Don Rubell: 48 – 50 But he’s the big complaint he has, he said. Young people have wonderful blank faces, and your face is face, I said. You’re 30 years too late to get a blank.

Mera Rubell: So these are two. These are as blank as an expression is speaking.

Pearl Lam: Yes.

Mera Rubell: Yeah.

Pearl Lam: So this is 8 hours.

Mera Rubell: Yes, it took 8 hours. Yes, yes. Well, so we learned that photography can take just as much time. You know, can really needs to take that time to really get it.

Don Rubell: But I but I felt I became very sympathetic for the fashion models. Who sit there all day waiting for these photos.

Pearl Lam: I think fashion photography is really different, different from and from art fair.

Mera Rubell: It’s different, but it’s, I’m just saying in terms of modelling.

Don Rubell: And being a model fashion.

Mera Rubell: In terms of being a sitting model, a model is difficult. When you think, you think of what? What in history, what it took.

Pearl Lam: The sitting is sitting. Yeah. And then, then. OK, so you do.

Mera Rubell: By the way, the sitting before the photograph was a tool to create a vignette that you could paint from. Do you know?

Don Rubell: What had answered the?

Mera Rubell: Question. For centuries you had to have the model actually sitting there all those hours.

Pearl Lam: Yes.

Mera Rubell: As the as the painter.

Don Rubell: Just as bad, yeah. But in answer to your question, what happened in around 1982 is all of the European collectors came to America. So being who we are, we decided, we decided to go to Europe. They’ll call coming here. We were going to go to Europe.

Mera Rubell: You know, it’s funny that what Don’s mentioning because there was a time when, you know, East, we were, East Village was a place that we visited every single Sunday. We visited studios and and galleries, especially on Sunday. The galleries, they were all open on Sunday.

Pearl Lam: Not like today.

Mera Rubell: Not well, no. But the interesting thing is all of a sudden there are this collectors called Doris and and Charles Saatchi. Everywhere we went, they bought the art and all of a sudden the prices went crazy. I mean, they went absolutely crazy and no one could compete with them. It was like, oh, Jeff Coons, Richard Prince, Cindy Sherman International with Monument. Who are these people? So Doris and Charles Saatchi were the, I mean, there were a whole group of people that came from a different collecting generation into this young generation. And we felt kind of pushed out in a way because we didn’t bring the money that they brought. So we said the hell with this, let them, we’ll give them New York and we’re going to go to Europe. So we started going to Europe.

Pearl Lam: I love that.

Mera Rubell: We started going and in Europe, the interesting thing is in Europe people really appreciate a young collector. Yeah, they respect young collectors. They’re not just like somebody buying young art. It’s like they celebrate people that have the courage to look at young art and support young art. So we suddenly felt appreciate.

Don Rubell: It but also there’s a different rhythm to European, yes slower that time it’s much slower than everyone in Europe takes their time yes thinks about it and.

Mera Rubell: There’s not a this urgency because what happened in the East Village?

Don Rubell: Became. It became chaotic.

Mera Rubell: Chaotic it was. There was a rush on the art and prices went crazy. We think it’s happened in the last 10 years, but you can’t imagine how wild it was at that moment in time. And so we.

Pearl Lam: Started in 1980s.

Mera Rubell: Yes, yes, it was what the, the, the we literally turned our back on New York because we felt like.

Don Rubell: But also there was this, there was an untapped source of European art. I mean, for the last 15 years everyone was looking at American art. So even people like Richter were relatively inexpensive.

Pearl Lam: For us, Did you see the Richter when you went to Germany because it’s Germany, or do you see it in?

Don Rubell: America, we saw it.

Mera Rubell: No, we saw it. We saw it in Europe, but already.

Don Rubell: They hadn’t even come to America.

Mera Rubell: They hadn’t come to America and but there were really interesting artists in Europe and when we got to know Dusseldorf and we got to know Berlin and.

Pearl Lam: Berlin wasn’t as.

Don Rubell: Berlin was a bit later.

Mera Rubell: Yeah, later I think also Belgium became very important too. Belgium. Belgium.

Don Rubell: Yeah, with Luke Toyman, Marlin Dumard.

Mera Rubell: You know, it’s we basically for us was it was thrilling to go to places because by going to the place, we could actually experience that the studios that we learned to appreciate way back when we first started is something that stayed with us to be able to visit an artist, spend some time with them, have a meal with them, come back the next day. So the place was important, the visit to the studio was important and.

Don Rubell: Also, it’s important that you see the culture that produced the art of.

Pearl Lam: Course, of course.

Don Rubell: You have to you know you can’t understand Richter without being there.

Mera Rubell: I mean, Kiefer, I mean, to be in his studio and to understand what motivates his art, his practise, the way he’s, it’s amazing. So all these experiences what what we, the travelling became part of our life to actually go to a place to actually spend that kind of time that we spent in in China, visiting the artist, having a meal with the artist, that connection, that connection. So even if you if so, it’s not, it’s all relates to getting with a young, especially a young artist, an unknown artist. It builds a degree of faith. So it’s not just a a instinctual attraction to the work, but it’s also it bet it’s backed up with what you’re learning about the artist and and the the practice.

Pearl Lam: What happened? If you like the art, you don’t like the artist, would you still collect art? Because you know, usually you know, you love the big pieces.

Don Rubell: Mera has much more empathy than I do, so she would not collect the artist if she doesn’t like it. I always figured, you know, Caravaggio is not a very nice man.

Mera Rubell: But I can’t I I don’t.

Don Rubell: And a certified murderer. And I would have collected his.

Mera Rubell: But you wouldn’t have known they he wouldn’t have known that he was a murderer. He.

Don Rubell: Wouldn’t he was always trying?

Mera Rubell: But I’m trying to think of artists that that I don’t like as people most of the time.

Don Rubell: I think of them, but you know, I insult them.

Mera Rubell: No, no. But I, I think for the most part they get, I hate to say this, but sometimes they’re always great when they’re young. It’s when they get older that is a problem. When they when they sell out, when they become, when they become a cliche of themselves, when they become.

Pearl Lam: but when the ego becomes

Mera Rubell: Ego and the money and all of that, and they suddenly become, you know, real estate longer. But also we know the artists in the very seductive, beautiful time in their careers, they’re eager. They’re they’re, they’re not as confident, but they’re first discovering themselves and we and most of the time we can.

Pearl Lam: Ability.

Mera Rubell: Yes, they find each other and we find them at a moment when they breakthrough and it’s a tender moment. I think it’s a very well, you know, the difference between artists that have already achieved tremendous fame and financial success. Some of them, some of them you don’t want to know, you don’t even want to know them. And as a gallerist, you probably have to still represent them. But we can move away from, we can move away from them. We we can still go back to the innocence of the young artist who is emerging.

Pearl Lam: So the first European artist that you collect? They’re Germans.

Mera Rubell: Yes, Thomas Schutte I think was one of the first?

Don Rubell: No, Francesco Clemente.

Mera Rubell: Francesca Clemente. Yes, that’s true. I forgot Francesca Clemente.

Pearl Lam: But Francesco Clemente at the time, was he living in?

Mera Rubell: In Italy we met them and it’s not here.

Don Rubell: Actually, we first visited his studio. His young daughter was actually peeing on the painting. We said you can’t do that. And he’s, you know it, just kind.

Mera Rubell: Of life, part of life, you know.

Don Rubell: So his studio was his was his apartment was his, yeah, residence for the family.

Mera Rubell: Yeah, but it, it, I remember seeing these big, I think there were paperworks on the floor and this little girl was just like, I don’t know that she was peeing on it. She was like walking on it, you know what I mean? It was like a kid in the diaper or whatever, but yeah.

Don Rubell: It was interesting. The reason he made paper is he had gone to India before this and he was in the southern part of India and there was no way he can get the paintings.

Mera Rubell: Canvas.

Don Rubell: Canvas packs. So he started painting on paper and they would, he would fold it, put it, someone put it on their head and walked ten miles.

Mera Rubell: Away it was like sheets of paper that could be carried on the head to deliver to him and then he he found a way to join these sheets of paper into larger works and some of the work that we have is is.

Don Rubell: Some of the.

Mera Rubell: Best works that are actually that fold up into these sheets.

Pearl Lam: So that means that what brings you to travel around the world is the art world.

Don Rubell: We have never gone on a vacation. The only we, we just actually American Airlines just sent me something and said we just passed 3,000,000 miles. Yeah, and every one of those 3,000,000 miles was to look at art and not for vacation?

Mera Rubell: So. But do you call that work?

Pearl Lam: No, because you see by the way.

Mera Rubell: Do you ever go on vacation?

Pearl Lam: No, I don’t not, I don’t not because, because I think, would you like something?

Mera Rubell: At work, Is it what we’re doing? No.

Pearl Lam: No, no, not at all. No. So after from our last conversation, you went to China first time is it’s just how you mentioned?

Mera Rubell: 2000.

Pearl Lam: And from then, then you keep you went to China quite often.

Mera Rubell: Right. But there was a reason to come back. There were reasons to come back. You were one of those reasons.

Pearl Lam: Thank you.

Mera Rubell: Well, you were because you, you enticed us into, we had a taste of China, right? We had a taste of China in 2001. Then you say come, we can go. And you know we well.

Don Rubell: You know, you were looking at 15-20 years of talent that had been making work, that making work.

Mera Rubell: And the world hadn’t.

Don Rubell: The world hadn’t seen it yet and we were just astonished. You would take us to one place after another after another and it was just astonishing amount of talent.

Pearl Lam: But is it but everything you know, you haven’t been back at least I mean China, you haven’t been there at least 7-8 years. Yes, 7-8 years is about time you come back. I agree.

Don Rubell: Not this.

Mera Rubell: Do I hear a generous invitation?

Pearl Lam: Yeah, of course. You’re always welcome. Always. You know, I really have such fun. I mean, our trip is unbelievable, unbelievable. The fun that we had, we were laughing, staring at you all.

Mera Rubell: We stayed in one way, but do you remember we stayed in one hotel where the ceiling fell in on us? It was the fanciest hotel

Pearl Lam: Yes, the Jockey Club. Yes, I got you all to say. It was so funny. We.

Mera Rubell: Stayed in these real dump, you know, we said.

Don Rubell: No ceiling ever fell in on us except this fanciest.

Mera Rubell: Dump the fanciest hotel, the Jockey Club. The ceiling fell in on us. That was the funniest thing, he said. Oh, I want to treat you to this great hotel. And then and then the ceiling.

Don Rubell: We were so embarrassed. We didn’t want to tell you that the we had to tell the manager that it’d be a good idea if you get us out of this room.

Mera Rubell: We were lucky we weren’t hurt.

Pearl Lam: That you’re unharmed.

Mera Rubell: We were literally the bed was on my side of the room and the ceiling fell in on the other and this was the fanciest hotel. We said. Were you with us when we went up the mountain on the?

Don Rubell: The Buddhist mountain.

Mera Rubell: Buddhist Mountain where I was where I was.

Don Rubell: Mera wasn’t able to breathe.

Pearl Lam: Yes.

Mera Rubell: You remember the altitude sickness and the elevator? They shot down the elevator. They didn’t have an elevator operator. And you brought the chief monk to help me figure out how to breathe to survive tonight.

Don Rubell: But he said it happened to a lot of people, so he gave her oxygen.

Pearl Lam: Yes, you need to have fresh oxygen because of the altitude problem.

Mera Rubell: But why did we go there? Because did they make art, those monks? Or was that just an adventure?

Don Rubell: Just to see the.

Mera Rubell: Yeah, because you have.

Pearl Lam: To see things.

Mera Rubell: It was incredible.

Pearl Lam: You have to see things to relate. It was amazing man to learn.

Mera Rubell: But we took this elevator, it was an outdoor elevator. It took us, you know what, 5000 feet in the air.

Don Rubell: 5000 metres.

Mera Rubell: Metre and I was fine and then just.

Pearl Lam: And as soon as you walked out?

Mera Rubell: Yeah, but then the elevator shut down and they couldn’t take me down. It was crazy. But this?

Don Rubell: But I think China’s coming due again. I think that, you know, there was a tremendous enthusiasm over Chinese artists but because of other reasons, in the last five or ten years there hasn’t been as much cross cross fertilisation.

Pearl Lam: And I think.

Don Rubell: You know, and talent, I’m sure is there I.

Mera Rubell: I think politics has gotten in the way? The truth of the matter is that we found the Chinese people to be as gracious as engaged.

Don Rubell: Amazingly.

Mera Rubell: Amazingly, I mean, they love Americans. I mean, we never went. We never visited a place in the world that loved Americans.

Pearl Lam: Because like shows that you created that create the platform for cultural dialogue. What is important is that we

Mera Rubell: We have more in common than we don’t. I mean, the food we shared, the conversation we had, they were generous, they were loving. They’re very hardworking people. They’re, I mean, we just, I mean, we fell in love.

Pearl Lam: And in China, the difference then from the West is the artist always pays to take you out.

Don Rubell: I know that was a very.

Pearl Lam: Always think you are. There’s nobody in the West that they don’t do.

Mera Rubell: So right, right, right. Every single, every single yes, yes.

Pearl Lam: Every single artist is has to take you.

Mera Rubell: Out. You’re absolutely right. I remember sitting at

Pearl Lam: This very different.

Mera Rubell: Huge like these huge round tables and one of them was Ai Weiwei that we and it’s true. They insist on they insist on treating it. This is true. This is a this is a tradition that has to come to America.

Don Rubell: The interesting thing is we didn’t have the language exchange, but we always felt that China and the United States had more in common than almost any places in the world. And this was, you know, and it’s a shocking realisation. I mean, it’s the same type of energy, it’s the same type of ambition. It’s just the family, the importance of the family that works. Self education, education.

Mera Rubell: These are all values. I mean, I would say that the connection to the average Chinese person was so positive. I mean, we, we felt a real connection. And I’m, I’m sorry that the politics, I mean, we never focused on politics. We never thought about politics. We never, we never thought about the political, the, it’s just the, any politics involved. But the actual person we have more in common with the Chinese people than ever.

Pearl Lam: I think very different is I think the both of you would connect with people from the low to the high. And that’s very special because because you’re an art world, you have low to high. You don’t have this discrimination. You’re not, I mean, you don’t have that. And so you really get to know the people.

Don Rubell: No, actually I’m looking forward to going back to China

Pearl Lam: You should. You should because it’s a complete.

Mera Rubell: We got a very special invitation.

Pearl Lam: From yeah, you have.

Mera Rubell: This not every day you got an invitation from Pearl and.

Pearl Lam: And then and we’ll.

Mera Rubell: Have to when you will you have enough people to seat at that table when we come.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, I will give you a huge party and I think when you arrive all the artists will be flying.

Mera Rubell: In they will be the.

Pearl Lam: Younger artist is very different today as.

Mera Rubell: Well, what’s different?

Pearl Lam: Because they have education, because the older generation like 60s and those they didn’t, many of those they haven’t even they stopped studying when the age of 16 or 18, I mean 16 basically because they’re sent to factories. And now the in the 40s, in those 40s, they have education. Some, some of them study abroad. And but this generation, they have nothing to worries. There’s no politics to worry, nothing to worry, nothing to worry about food. They’re very confident.

Mera Rubell: Confident because they’re more secure.

Don Rubell: Justified.

Mera Rubell: And are they? Are they actually do they is there a market for their work?

Pearl Lam: Now they’re getting worried because when they’re coming out, there was still a market. Now there’s no market.

Don Rubell: That’s true all over the world right now.

Pearl Lam: See how they survive.

Don Rubell: But that’s true all over the world.

Pearl Lam: Course. But but the difference is China, because of that one child policy, you have all the parents, grandparents, everybody’s supporting. It’s not like the older generation, the older generation doesn’t have that support, so they’re really hungry to make that success. The younger generation is less of them.

Mera Rubell: Because you think that they’re spoiled by families because they’re the only child?

Pearl Lam: They’re the only child.

Mera Rubell: Yeah, interesting. They’re less, you know, but it’s changed, right?

Pearl Lam: Changed, but some of them is, is, I mean some of them is very talented. I mean, I mean, I know, I know one artist who’s who is trying to merge technology and art was using those VR glasses and and did things in in VR and ticking that and static and put it in paintings and in sculptures is really interesting.

Mera Rubell: Is that where you think is there? Can you? I can never generalise, but you think that Chinese artists are looking to merge technology?

Pearl Lam: No, the scene is so big. So and so everyone is developing in a different way. And also the syllabus has changed before and now the syllabus in the Chinese Academy, they have taking from the West. It’s more Western syllabus.

Don Rubell: Even in CAA.

Pearl Lam: CAA definitely, definitely because you have a lot of foreigners lecturers coming to teach.

Don Rubell: They were very traditional when we were there.

Mera Rubell: You know, when we came with Zhuan at this in 2001, we went to a university city Chengdu. They invited us, right, that we’re having lunch with the professors and they said, oh, I feel so selfish having lunch alone with you. Can you come and visit some of my students? So he said sure, come back, come to my come to the campus in an hour, (2:00), which was like an hour away. An hour later we come, we arrive on the campus. And then he gathered an entire auditorium, 2000 students to hear to meet us. So this was Zhuan one at the time. And so we got on stage and no one could speak in English, of course, and.

Don Rubell: More importantly, we could not speak Chinese.

Pearl Lam: So did anybody do translation?

Mera Rubell: Somebody started translating and we said, I said to, and Jennifer was with us. Then I said, you know, I don’t think I don’t know what we can talk about because I mean, do they know Andy Warhol? Do they know? Do they know Jean Michel Bosco? Did they know? Well, wait a minute, wait a minute. You can’t believe this, but so they put on the board. They wrote John, Andy Warhol. Everybody raised their hand. They knew Andy Warhol, everybody know John Michelle. I said then we would put down Richard Prince, put down every artist we put on the board, and they translated who it was. They knew everybody. It was the most sophisticated art audience. This is in 2001. Those kids because of the Internet. These 2000 kids because of the Internet.

Don Rubell: Knew everything.

Mera Rubell: Everything, they were more sophisticated, and I always tell this to students that I that come to us now from all you know from, from, you know, schools, high schools, colleges, they’re not as informed as these Chinese kids were.

Pearl Lam: They’re so.

Don Rubell: I don’t know if it’s still true.

Pearl Lam: They’re so hungry for knowledge.

Mera Rubell: They are searching the Internet. They knew every, They knew artists. They were having a show that month in Chelsea.

Pearl Lam: They knew, you see now CAA, I think even 10 years ago or or 10 years ago, they start adopting. They have French, they have the French Academy, they came in with their syllabus, they’re taking all over the world syllabus. So when you see the artist today, they are much more conceptual than really, yeah, the way it.

Don Rubell: It was inevitable. If you study hard enough, you’re gonna get to the edge of the emblem.

Mera Rubell: I’ll never forget, I’m always talking about these 2000 students in China.

Pearl Lam: It’s amazing. Isn’t it.

Mera Rubell: More informed about America.

Pearl Lam: It’s different because they were hungry.

Mera Rubell: Do you think today it’s not the?

Pearl Lam: Same. I don’t know. I don’t know. I feel that they do know, but they are more like the artists in the West than good old days. Good old days is because it’s not open, you know, with, you know, you don’t travel so much. They’re hungry and hungry and hungry and you have a foreigner bake collectors coming in. They want to learn. They want to know what is outside.

Mera Rubell: We enjoyed our our time in China and we have to take you up on your offer.

Pearl Lam: Please, please. And then we will go to other places as well. I mean all those 60 years of your marriage, 60 years of adventure, art, adventure.

Don Rubell: Definitely. Art adventure, yeah.

Pearl Lam: On this note, I want to thank you, Don and Mera, for joining me on this podcast, and I’m waiting for you in China.

Don Rubell: We’re ready.

Mera Rubell: We’re ready. Ready.

Pearl Lam: And I’ll see you next month in Paris. Thank you, Thank you so much.