Pearl Lam (林明珠): Hello, this is the Pearl Lam Podcast. Now I’m sitting at the temporary home of my very dear friend Basma Al-Sulamain and I think the past we have done an FT interview together. So now unfortunately her home had a fire and, and at her neighbour home. So she could not move in for nine months.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: So now more, even more, maybe even more. It’s so sad.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): And now, and now I’m at her temporary home doing our podcast. Basma, can you introduce yourself? Because a lot of audience, they don’t know the art world, they don’t know what you have contributed to the art world. It would be great of you.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes, well, my name is Basma Al-Sulaiman, I come from Saudi Arabia and I’ve been in the art world for many, many years. This is how I met Pearl and now, you know, it’s a journey. Art world is a journey and I took that journey and I loved every bit of it. So to put things in context, Saudi Arabia is a… The modern Saudi Arabia is a very young country and it was established in 1932 and before that it was a very modest country with very limited resources.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Nomads.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Nomads. After the 32, in 38, the oil was discovered and from there on the transformation happened where at the early stages the focus and the concentration was to build a country, to build the infrastructure, the education, the health system, everything. So that was the focus. So art and culture was not a top priority at that stage.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): But you were one of the first person who started a virtual museum.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Exactly.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Called BASMOCA.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes, that’s true. You know, and this is, was part of my journey. My journey went through exploration, went through education, went through many stages until I masked a collection that I thought I was ready to share it with the world. Physical space was not convenient at that time. So I went towards technology and I created the BASMOCA Virtual Museum in 2011. That was the beginning.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): And for the audience to know the technology of BASMOCA is it was based on second life. So the second life, if I’m right.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Right, yes, that’s the beginning.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): It was the second life. The whole concept, the technicians built the best MOCA and so you go in there, there’s an avatar and brings you everywhere. And then can you imagine 2011? That was amazing.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes, exactly. And the platform was like used for many things, but I used it to create a museum. But then it was limiting, you know, and I could not do what I want. It crashed, you know, and so on. So I created my own platform which was the BASMOCA World. This is where I had my museum. I was able to create your metaverse. Metaverse. And this is the technology that is still used now. I used it already back in 2011.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): How amazing. Technology as well. I mean, what is interesting for me, Basma, is I’ve known you for at least; no, more than a decade.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: More than a decade.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Much more than a decade.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: 2004. 2005.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah. I mean, wow.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: My God, that’s so old. We’re both. We’re not going to speak about that.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): What I was amazed when I first met you. A Saudi collecting Chinese art and a Chinese major collector. That was really quite shocking for me. Saudi. What is the connection? I thought Saudi is a desert. And these ladies I met, my God. Not that they are educated, they’re curious. I remember you were telling me with all your groups of Middle Eastern friends. Every week there is two times you were inviting professors to comem to teach you, to talk about history, politics, philosophy, whatever, everything, everything. So when you go for social function or even at dinners, you all are very well versed. And the most important thing is that curiosity is something that I really was amazed by because I haven’t seen any of my contemporaries or in China ladies are so interested to be so self cultivated. So I was having a shock of the world. Beside that, why was Saudi liking Chinese art? And then I realised that you have All those political pop work.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: You know, like I was obsessed with that art. Ask me why? How? I don’t know.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I think your last life, you must be Chinese.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: I have been Chinese, I always told you that. You know, like in 2000 when I moved to London, the first thing I did, I did a course. I took a diploma in contemporary and modern. Modern and contemporary art. And from there on I started to look at art coming from different cultures. And I loved the one that came from China because there was a big message, there was challenge, there was, you know, like there was a love for life and wanting to belong, you know, And I thought that was fresh. And not only me, the whole world was obsessed with Chinese art. But what helped you remember is that after that period I went to China, yes, when my daughter.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, when your daughter was in China.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: So this again exposed me to so much culture, history, art, you know, and that was where it really enriched my experience. And about the curiosity, because, look, Saudi Arabia, the position of women there is very, you know, like, it’s not very clear at that moment. It was a bit challenging, bit limiting. So it all was up to the woman herself how much knowledge she wanted. So a lot of them grow this curiosity to look for knowledge, information, to start to, to collect all these experiences because due to the limitation they had, you know, in their life. And that was a period which was like before the vision, you know, now we have a vision that since the MBS Prince Mohammed bin Salman came to power in 2016, he created this vision for the Saudis. And this vision was one of, you know, first of course, reduce dependency on oil, diversify the economy and so on. But one of the main objective of it was to change and reform the social aspects of life there. And one of it empowering women, you know, and this is here where the doors were open. Before it was limited, we had the guardianship system. I don’t know if you’re aware of that. Yes, yeah, the guardianship system and so on. But after this vision, it’s like life has opened.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Okay. I was going to talk about Saudi a bit later, but since we are in Saudi, we talk about Saudi first before we talk about you being a Saudi.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yeah, because, you know, like this you place me, you can understand more or less.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I mean, I mean, you’re not just Saudi, you’re international. Okay. What amazes me is when I went to visit you. Is it last year or two years ago?

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Two years ago.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Two years ago when I walk into Saudi, I went to Jeddah, where you live. The first night we were in a rooftop rave party with all the music blasting. Everybody was dancing. I was flabbergasted. Because all we read is, well, in a Muslim country, you can, you have to wrap around yourself. Remember you asked me, you have asked me years ago to come. I said, no, I don’t want to come. I don’t want to wrap myself up. And then. But this summer went without wrapping myself up. But the first thing I saw is music.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Dancing. But there I was in the midst of a big party at the rooftop. That was my first experience. I was totally not just felt, I was shocked because this was completely a different image. I would have known about what I would have imagined about Saudi. Next thing is, as you know, I’m a foodie. Right?

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Oh, my God, the food is so good. The Japanese food is so good. The Japanese food there is better than in London.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yeah.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I mean, come on. I mean, I could not believe that. So all that things. And then I saw. I mean, I started having different Saudi friends, Saudi women friends. They are all very knowledgeable, they’re all like really good in business. They have vision and they are strong. Their confidence, very much. Where did it come from? Because what we read and what I actually see and meet the people, of course, I’m not saying that everyone. But we saw the young girls, they were working, they’re very dynamic. I went to all these institutions, they were all there, curators. It’s completely a different image that I would have.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: What you have. Exactly. But this is what we always suffered, the stereotype. People don’t want to change that image. They still want to see the Saudi woman and keep that image in their mind that she’s repressed, she’s covered, she’s not educated, she’s just a follower, you know, and all of that. And this is not true.

Pearl Lam: I mean. I mean, your sister is all educated in America.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yeah. She was the first Saudi paediatrician from Georgetown University. She had honours, she graduated, got the American board. And this is where I want to take you to this point where there is always the notion is that Saudi women share the same cultural experience and identity. And this is not true. This is not true from the olden days. This is not true because Saudi is very diversified culturally. It’s very diversified. It has different culture within one culture. But it all depends on the experience of each woman. Like, what applies to you does not apply to me. And that depends on the region, where they come from, the education, you know, like.

Pearl Lam: But isn’t that because you guys are from the elite family, that’s why you are being sent abroad to study?

Basma Al-Sulaiman: No, no. Because this is again, another thing is that we have developed because the education system, at the very beginning, I’m talking about the 40s and the 50s, was a little bit just starting. We created the scholarship system which was sending young boys and girls abroad for their education. And this system was very strong and kept developing and evolving. And it included everybody, especially the middle class. And these are the ones that returned and they are all now in leading positions because education was very important. Education was in the heart of every parent, you know. Education was very important. And everybody wanted the best education for their kids, either locally or internationally, if they can afford it, or through the scholarship program. And we send children to everywhere in the world. At the beginning it was in the Western world, it was America, UK, Canada and so on. But after they thought that it’s better to send them to different culture. So they started going to Japan, to the far east, to North Africa, to many places. Because the knowledge that they will get and the experience, it’s going to all kind of end up in Saudi where it will push and develop the country and the economy. So when the country opened up, everybody was ready. We did not need the expats, we did not bring people like other countries. We did not need to do that. Now all our young people and the new generation, they are in leading positions.

Pearl Lam: And also what I was pretty impressed, pretty impressed was when I was asking all the Saudi ladies, I said, oh, can you put up with your husband having four wives? They all said to me, they don’t have four wives, only me, one wife.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Exactly.

Pearl Lam: We don’t have. What is this that people are talking about? It’s not true.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: No, it’s not true.

Pearl Lam: Because it’s really, you know, I think there’s still a small percentage, but it’s not every.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Not everybody. And basically just a simple answer. They can’t afford it now. The demands of life, you know, it’s not the same like before and there is no need. Maybe at the beginning was to grow the population or for a reason, but now there is no need. They and most of the couples, the boy and you know, the man and the woman are all educated. So what applies to you, applies to me. So if you make a choice, you want to have another life. I’m not. I have a choice.

Pearl Lam: For the audience to know if you are not from Saudi is when Basma mentioned the guardianship is whenever any woman before, prior to the new rules is when they get out of the country, they have to have a male person to sign off before they can get out of the country or to do anything. Beside that, they can’t drive, right?

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes.

Pearl Lam: And then now they’re free. They are entity, they are individual, they’re independent. So you have woman minister and then there’s so many women. Okay, let’s talk about the woman artist.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes, the woman artist.

Pearl Lam: I mean, there are so many women artists, much more than men and male artists in Saudi.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: You know, like, let’s say they are more or less equivalent to male artists.

Pearl Lam: But what.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: But they were there from the very beginning. Like one of the first Saudi. From the first artist was a Saudi woman where they. She did her first exhibition in 58.

Pearl Lam: Wow.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yeah, she was Saudi, she went to, I mean, art school in Italy. But of course this special case was supported by her family. But they allowed her to be who.

Pearl Lam: She was, you know, so the family is not as traditional as what we. What our perception.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Exactly. The perception is so wrong, you know, because they see the image that they have in them, in the mind is like the black thing. Everybody’s covered, everybody is, you know, like. So they must be not educated, they must be not exposed.

Pearl Lam: Oh, by the way, I was in Jeddah, no woman was, was covered. Then I go to Riyadh, I did see some women was covered. But then when I went to al-Ula. Yes, the desert, many women were covered.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: This is where I told you it’s not all women have that share the same experience. We don’t have all the same experience. And it’s a very much a personal choice how much you want to cover, how much you want to. The main thing, the main rule is that you have to be respectfully dressed, you know, that’s the main rule. But how much.

Pearl Lam: You can remember one of our friends who wants to come and you know, she loves mini, mini, mini.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yeah, exactly.

Pearl Lam: I say you cannot wear.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yeah, this may. Exactly. You have to respect the culture, you know, and this is where the limitation happens. But the colour, what you wear, what you put on your head is varies and it is a personal choice.

Pearl Lam: But I have to confess, among all the Middle Eastern country I’ve been, the only place that I want to come back is Saudi. I love Saudi. I mean it took me such a long time to visit. I was so reluctant to visit, but I love that al-Ulo, that’s that culture and the artists are really strong, strong. And you know, there’s a lot of surprises there. Let’s talk about you. Okay.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yeah.

Pearl Lam: So does your family collect?

Basma Al-Sulaiman: No.

Pearl Lam: So how did you first start collecting? Even with Walid, your ex husband? Yeah, I mean, how do you persuade him to collect art you don’t like?

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Because I never grow up with art. I never was in museums. I was never exposed to that, you know, as a child. But then, you know, it started by travelling. We started to travel abroad, we started, you know, visited museum, but not as art museum, mostly as part of the tour, you know, like you do, you know, like if you go to Paris, you see the Eiffel Tower, you have to pass by the Louvre. But it’s not like I wanted to go with my family to see that the Louvre, to look at the art. No no, it was part of the tour, you know, and this is where the interest started growing, is that seeing all these different museums, this attending all these different exhibitions, the galleries, you know, like a lot of, you know, like Saatchi and that exhibition, the first exhibition for the Chinese art. No, no, the YPOs

Pearl Lam: Oh, the YPOs? Across the river?

Basma Al-Sulaiman: No, not. Yeah, it was another one. I forgot the name right now. And there was a lot of scandal about it. It went to New York.

Pearl Lam: Oh, oh, no, it was in Royal Academy. Yes, that is called Sensation.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Sensation.

Pearl Lam: Sensation was amazing.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: And then it went to New York.

Pearl Lam: And then New York.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Exactly. Sensation was, for me was a turning point. You know, seeing those old found objects that are turned into earth and blood and the shark and, you know, all of these things were very new experience for me. But I started. I started at the beginning with a learning trip. You know, it’s just to watch, to look, to experience, to see. And started noticing what other people have.

Pearl Lam: But your first painting is the David Hockney. I mean, your. Your budget is very high because whenever.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: It was not at that time, I.

Pearl Lam: Mean, but whenever people start buying, when they begin. Yes, they buy younger artists. They don’t buy a David Hockney. Yeah, okay. I didn’t David Hockney at the time, at least if it is not hundreds of thousands, it’s ten of thousands.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yeah. At that time, I had absolutely no clue who’s David Hockney? I. Nothing. And I just felt the attraction at that time. Bought Hockney and I bought a Stella.

Pearl Lam: Oh, Stella as well. What sort of Stella?

Basma Al-Sulaiman: It was like not geographic, geometrical design, you know, and Hockney. I was attracted to the colours, to the subject. I. We paid for it at that time, $60,00

Pearl Lam: Very cheap. But at the time, 60,000 is a lot.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Is a lot. In the 90s, that was what we. I still remember the amount that we paid for it. And then, you know, like, from there on, my curiosity grow and I wanted to explore more. So I started to attend. First, it was classic art because my ex, my Walid, he wanted more because he was more comfortable, you know, and in art that was also, you know, sensation.

Pearl Lam: Not sensational, definitely.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: He was. He never liked Sensational, that kind of art. So we were more into classic, you know, like Venetian, landscape, you know. You know, but not so important. Yeah, you know, Canaletto, he loved Canaletto, but we never went into that, to that price range, even at that time. But it was this kind of scene, you know, like ships, water, you know, things that what you see is what you get. I was more curious about the contemporary. Yeah, the contemporary. So when I started buying this, he was not very happy, you know, like, what is this? You know, like, this. Anybody can do it, you know. You know, my child can do that. But I loved it. I loved that art. And I felt I had this connection and when. And this was the beginning. Is experimenting without knowledge or education. But of course, after the course In Christie’s in 2000, my perception to art was changed. And at the same time, I was alone. By that time, I was a single mother, so I was able to do the art travel. So I travelled with, like, Roger Bevin for different art trips and then started doing courses, attending more advanced shows. You know, like, one of the shows that I still remember was Africa Remix, where I love that show. Can you imagine?

Pearl Lam: And Pompidou. I was there every day for five days.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: And this is where I was introduced to Annette Zoe. Yeah, I love this. Yeah, yeah. That was one of the things. And they were all avant garde, you know, Avant garde. Everything was such. Yeah, yeah. I love.

Pearl Lam: This was my best. My best loving show.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes, I love that show. Me too. And it was early 2000. Yeah, it was here in the Hayward.

Pearl Lam: No, I saw it in Pompidou.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yeah, I saw it here in the Hayward. And from there on, you know, I started looking into emerging art that’s coming from different culture. India impacted me very much by trips to India, because this is where I lived.

Pearl Lam: You went with Melissa, right, I went.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: With Melissa and I went with Amin Jaffer.

Pearl Lam: Yeah.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Different trips. Two different trips.

Pearl Lam: Is it different? The feeling?

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes. Yes. The experiences were different with Melissa, it was more, you know, combining art, culture, heritage, you know, all of that. With Amin, it was focus on contemporary art. Yeah. And I remember visiting beautiful collection. And here where I learned about commission work, you know, because most of them, to support their artists. To support the Indian artists, what they did, a lot of these big families and big foundation commissioned works.

Pearl Lam: That’s how you commissioned the Saudi work, right

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Exactly. This is where I learned about commissioning. And this is where I said, okay, let me do the same. Why not? And I went back with this notion and I started dealing. At that time, the artists were still. I mean, not limited, they were producing, but on a smaller scale, domestic size, where they wanted to do, just to make ends meet, you know, it was not. It was not like really a big scene like today. And from there on, I built the Saudi Collection. I started buying everything that comes to auction that nobody wants to buy.

Pearl Lam: Really? There’s no one who wants to buy?

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes, yes. Like one of the most important piece came to auction during COVID and nobody, you know, bid on it. So I was very happy to be the one, you know, and I got it and things like that. And I started, you know, collecting. Collecting. Collecting Saudi with a focus and a vision and international art, which I bought what I love.

Pearl Lam: Okay, let’s talk about you chronologically. Okay. So you start. But you start collecting because you love it. You want to decorate your house.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes.

Pearl Lam: You never collect before investment.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: No.

Pearl Lam: Which is amazing because you buy because your heart likes.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes.

Pearl Lam: I think a lot of collectors has learned because that’s how you find the best, the best of art. Then after that you went for your course, you start loving Chinese. After that, during the time when you are building your Chinese collection, you are also curious about other contemporary art.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes.

Pearl Lam: So when do you actually started with your Saudi collection?

Basma Al-Sulaiman: I started after my trip to India because before that I bought bits and pieces, but without focus. But after the trip to India, which was like around 2005, you know, something like that, I started collecting with the focus.

Pearl Lam: You learn from the other collectors.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: I learned from the other collector. And nobody was doing it, you know, like nobody was doing this thing except in India. They were the ones that commissioned site specific artworks.

Pearl Lam: But I saw all your site-specific artwork two years ago at the museum at the Al-Ula. Yeah, yeah. Because you have all those big installation work which I don’t see, you know, if it’s not in the museum, it’s in your storage.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Exactly, exactly. Exactly. But that was the thing, is that I wanted to build artwork for an institution. The Saudi artwork. I wanted to build a collection as an institution.

Pearl Lam: So are you going to open an institution for yourself in Saudi?

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Well, it’s a big question, you know, like. And this is. I’ve been.

Pearl Lam: Because all you need is just to get a warehouse and put your things in.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes, exactly.

Pearl Lam: It’s not really, you know, at least you have few staff that people can come in, can see the world.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: I’ve been offered, you know, I’ve been offered a space that I can have. It is one of my projects. You know, this is something in the pipeline. I’m trying. I’m still working on it. But definitely I’m gonna go that down that road.

Pearl Lam: Because Basma, as you know, I’m very interested in cultural dialogue. What I see in you is you have. I can’t even call you a Saudi. You are international. You are like a person with a different passport. Because what is great about, you know, you are a universal person is there’s no discrimination about any culture. But because you recognise yourself as a Saudi, you’re promoting and pushing Saudi for other people to know. So your collection would be an international artist having a dialogue with a Saudi artist. And that is what I would love to see in your collection. Because this is who you are and what you are and it’s really important to have all that. Yeah, all that, what you’re showing. Because it’s your mind, it’s this cross cultural dialogue which is really important to me actually. This is soft power. This is the way for world peace.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: You know, this is what I did with my museum shows because they were a curated show in the virtual museum and was always based on this cultural dialogue. What the Saudis thought of a certain subject and what other artists thought of in the same time. And it was this dialogue which was very interesting. But you know, in a virtual world it is interesting, people can flicker through the Internet, but it’s different when they experience it physically…

Pearl Lam: Of course, in flesh it is really different.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Exactly. As if eventually I’m going down that route, you know, I would love to one day have that physical space. Yeah, yeah, I would love.

Pearl Lam: So through your whole journey becoming who you are now, what are you looking forward to? What is your future? How are you going to build your future within

Basma Al-Sulaiman: The art world?

Pearl Lam: Yeah, not just within the art world. In Saudi. Saudi, you’re finding your voice. A woman is given a voice, you’re giving a voice and you are really deep rooted in art and culture. How do you see yourself in the next two decades?

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes, I have a responsibility, I feel is that I have a big responsibility where I need to give part of what the experience I had. And I think one of that is to be committed to my society, community, to my people. Is that to pass this information or this knowledge, let’s say not information but knowledge, to pass this knowledge to them through every possible way. So what I have done recently is create an educational platform on social media and this is targeting the mass. I don’t want the elitist, I want everybody, I want everyone can open this link or this social media platform and look at the art and find it not only accessible but find it possible to understand. So I created the platform with the art information, art education, creating videos about artists to start with, like local Artists, our artists that not everybody knows about. No. You know, and this is the thing. So you. They need to be visible, people need to know them, need to be exposed to what they do, to their accomplishment. So I took it upon myself to pass this knowledge and information to the mass locally and internationally. So I do it in two languages, English and Arabic, you know, so it can serve, you know, the locals and the international world to be exposed to what is happening in our part of the world. I was still at the beginning, you know, but this is like now is my passion, you know, so I’m always looking for new opportunities, new things to introduce, a new way to produce. Either it’s films or reels, short reels, because don’t forget as well, Pearl. Now people have a short span.

Pearl Lam: Yes.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: You cannot, you know, load them with so much information.

Pearl Lam: That’s why TikTok works.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes.

Pearl Lam: Because it’s very short and it’s moving.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yeah. I have. I also have a platform in TikTok, Facebook, Instagram and on X as well, you know, so I’m trying to do that as my own social contribution. And I do it. It’s not for profit, so I don’t benefit. There is are no ads or anything. I just do it.

Pearl Lam: So tell me more about your philanthropical work because you have been doing a lot of philanthropy. Yeah, yeah, tell me more about that.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: You know, for me was the main thing is to promote Saudi and Saudi artists. So I’ve started from like, long time ago. Much before that, I started working with different because I thought it was impossible to place like artists within museums collections and to expose them to the rest of the world. So I started donating works from Saudi artists to museums. And this is a project that I embarked on and it’s very close to my heart. You know, Pearl, I lost Muhammad, my so. 12 years ago I lost Muhammad. And I do all these things because I want to keep his legacy alive and I want his name to be alive. I don’t want his name to disappear. You know, like sometime people, if they lose dear ones, they just don’t want to be reminded of them. For me, you want his name to.

Pearl Lam: You want his name to be in memory of.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Of him, you know, in something beautiful, you know, in something nice, you know. So I do all these donations. All my artwork that I kind of like loan or donate or do any work is always in his memory. And this makes me happy because two things that I love the most, you know, is the art world and my son, you know, That I lost. So. And it’s. And it always makes me happy when I see the artwork and I see the dedication, you know, so this has been part of my philanthropy and my contribution, and I support artists in their journey, in their residency, in a lot of work, and I really am happy doing that. And especially now that I see the fruit of what we have done, you know, like, I don’t know if, you know, the big show in Christie’s for one of the Saudi artists.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, you asked me to go.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yeah, you have to go and see. It is remarkable. Let’s go.

Pearl Lam: Okay, let’s go.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: In these coming two days.

Pearl Lam: No, tomorrow. I’m leaving, remember?

Basma Al-Sulaiman: When are you coming? Yes. But you will be back?

Pearl Lam: Yeah, when you’re back next week we can go.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Next week we’ll go. Because really something I’m so proud of. It’s really a great, great show. So all of these now, after the vision and now after all these major changes and the big support that the government is giving, it’s incredible the support that the art and the artists are having nowadays. They have exposure, they have support, education.

Pearl Lam: I was told the Riyadh Biennale is so much better than the Shanghai Biennale because Riyadh Biennale has lots of money, huge budget to make it the most successful. The second one was very good, I was told.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes, yes.

Pearl Lam: That is why I have to come back to Saudi. Maybe December.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yeah, Because January would be better. Because January. Chinese. Yeah. But because in January we have the Islamic.

Pearl Lam: I can come after maybe February or March.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yeah, because it’s beautiful and it’s based on a new concept, you know, it’s different from all the Biennale, so. And Amin Jafar is the curator this year.

Pearl Lam: I know, I know.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes. Yeah. So it’s a. A lot of things are happening. A lot of project. A lot of projects in. In as well, in al-Ula, you know, and for me, it’s important to see all these developments, to see all these, you know, I mean, this level of maturity that is happening.

Pearl Lam: It’s very fast as well.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: It’s very fast. Yeah, because everything was ready, you know, and it’s really amazing. And personally, for me, I would love to continue my journey. You know, my journey is started. And, you know, Pearl, it’s challenging, you know, because I don’t want to reach one day a point where I say, oh, what am I going to do next? No, I have to think of, you know, two, three projects already in the same.

Pearl Lam: That’s so exciting.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Yes, exactly. To continue, you know, to be able to face the second phase, the third phase, the fourth phase. So I hope I will find the next one now soon.

Pearl Lam: At this point I have to thank you Basma for the time that I spend here speaking about Saudi Art world and your journey is beautiful. Thank you Basma.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Thank you Pearl for this opportunity. Really appreciate.

Pearl Lam: Thank you.

Basma Al-Sulaiman: Thanks.