Pearl Lam: Welcome to the Pearl Lam Podcast. I’m in New York today, and sitting beside me is the very lovely Nadja Sayej. Nadja. Please tell the audience about who you are.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. I am a culture journalist. I’m an art writer who’s been doing this for 15 years. My most recent book is called The Glitzerati. And this is, I think, my 7th book. So I’m based in New York. I’m a writer and photographer and a documenter of pop culture.
Pearl Lam: Whoa.
Nadja Sayej: And I’ve been living in the US for about, I don’t know, I’d say five years now. Previously I spent a decade in Europe. I was seven years in Berlin and two years in Paris. And yeah, I’ve been given the gift of being able to be a writer. So I try and use it.
Pearl Lam: Seven books.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. But my most recent books are all photography books because people don’t really read books anymore. So if people see a book that looks like Instagram, which is photos with captions, they’re much more likely to read it or at least pick it up and browse through it. So I’ve kind of gone that way with my most recent books.
Pearl Lam: Celebrity is one of your. Is one of your topics and then your future. What is the celebrity impact on pop culture?
Nadja Sayej: I mean, it depends how you look at it. But celebrities, when you look at it from within the US, it’s driven by gossip and tabloids and a way to get easy clicks, making celebrities look bad in order to make yourself feel better. But to the outside, people from outside of the US, looking inside, it’s the American dream. These people are rich, and they are famous, and this is the American dream. If they can succeed, maybe you can too. So it depends on where you’re looking at it and how. But, you know, for people to look at Jennifer Lopez as somebody who started out in the Bronx as a middle-class woman rising up to fame and being a self-made woman, a lot of people would applaud that, but then other people just make fun of her. So it depends. But a lot of them are success stories. Are they model citizens? Probably not, because when you meet them, they’re very much just like the rest of us. But still, their stories are much more in the public eye. So it’s inspiring to sometimes see what they’ve achieved and overcome. And they’ve, obviously, most people, they’ve fallen and then come back up again in the public eye. I mean, I can’t imagine how tragic that is. But if these people are meant for the public eye, they’re just probably used to it.
Pearl Lam: Because what I read is you have interviewed thousands of celebrities.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: From fashion designer called Jean Paul Gaultier and to David Lynch, director. I mean, so who’s your favorite I celebrity you have interviewed and who’s, and who’s for you is the most impressive.
Nadja Sayej: I would say that everybody has their own special quality to them. Everybody has a different personality. My favorite question to ask these people is, what is the secret to your success? Because if you ask this question, they have the opportunity to give back something, piece of wisdom, advice, you know, inspiration. That’s my favorite question to ask people, what’s the secret to your success? And I try and ask this to everybody that’s famous, who I interview, squeezing it in at the very end because I’m only given the chance to interview these people if they have a book coming out, if they have a movie coming out.
Pearl Lam: Yes, of course. For a reason.
Nadja Sayej: For a reason. That’s the only reason. But I always try and sneak in that one question sometimes. The only time I’ve used to be I would get 30 minutes with them. Now I get five to seven minutes.
Pearl Lam: What?
Nadja Sayej: I know, it’s, how come?
Pearl Lam: Why? Is there a reason?
Nadja Sayej: Because they’re just more in demand. I mean, I have no idea, but it’s much harder for me to be able to get a good interview with somebody on such short time. So the questions have to be very precise, right?
Pearl Lam: Yeah.
Nadja Sayej: And you have two questions, maybe three questions. But who do I love the most? Christina Ricci. The actress says, she said, don’t ask me for advice. Listen to yourself. I thought that was good.
Pearl Lam: That’s very good. That was very good.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, that’s very good advice. David lynch said, meditate. Learn how to meditate every day and incorporate in your daily routine, because he’s obviously the founder of Transcendental meditation Foundation organization. Who else do I love? Who did I love to speak with? Susan Sarandon. I got to speak to her in 2015 when she went to the Greek islands to greet the refugees who were coming over from Syria. That was a very interesting story. And, I mean, there’s just so many Yoko Ono as well. She’s a very interesting person.
Pearl Lam: She is. She’s a very interesting artist as well.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very misunderstood, of course, because I think.
Pearl Lam: You know, since she was with a John Lennon, that has completely overshadowed her and her career. And that’s really unfortunate, because I went to her exhibition in the museum in Japan, and I saw her, her performances when she was young. It’s amazing.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, yeah. It’s brilliant.
Pearl Lam: She should be a superstar.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, yeah. And I loved going to her retrospective in Frankfurt. Max Hollein, who’s now the MET Director, he was the director of the Schirn Kunsthale back then. And, yeah, it was, you know, life changing. Some people, when they, you know, when they look back on their whole career after 80 years, I mean, you know, it has a stunning effect. But again, you look at the other side of it, the male perspective, and, you know, Yoko knows, broke up the Beatles.
Pearl Lam: Yes, yes.
Nadja Sayej: So it depends on how you look at things.
Pearl Lam: But how. I mean, everybody’s. Everybody’s career, they have positive and negative.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: Anyway, so why I’m interested is you, Nadia.
Nadja Sayej: Okay.
Pearl Lam: How did you come, you know, you were being an art critic, and then you evolved, and then you find other career path?
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, for sure. So, I started out. I studied abstract painting. I have a Bachelor of Fine Art from Toronto, a school called Ontario College of Art and Design University. And I got into a master’s program in New York, but I couldn’t afford to come, so I went to journalism school in Toronto, and I did the night school program. Cause I was still able to work during the day. And, yeah, I ended up writing about art because typically, back then, and at many journalism schools, they just teach you how to write about politics. And I was like, I don’t care about politics. I want to be a culture journalist. I want to write about entertainment, art, all those types of things. But specializing in culture journalism, you can do that at Columbia University if you can pay $50,000 a year. But most places, they just train you to write about politics. So, yeah, I came from a background of, you know, being an abstract painter, learning how to write about painting, writing about my own painting, and spending more time writing about the art rather than making it. So then I thought, let’s give this a try, and ended up, you know, making a living at it. And I started writing for ArtUS Magazine, which was an art and text magazine, which was like a pretty important art magazine edited by Paul Foss, based in LA. And he was. He kind of took me under his wing a little bit as a mentor and taught me how to write a really good art review.
Pearl Lam: Wow.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. So I was very, very lucky. I didn’t get paid, but it was still just a worthy experience to figure it out. And then I started writing for the Globe and Mail, which is like Canada’s, like, centrist newspaper. I would say it’s, you know, center left. But it was exciting. I got to write for a newspaper, and I started writing for the Toronto section, writing about culture that was going on in Toronto and got to the top of my field writing for that. And then was like, all right, it’s time to go. The recession hit. Do you remember the recession of 2008?
Pearl Lam: Oh, that was, of course, the whole world.
Nadja Sayej: It was brutal.
Pearl Lam: Of course it’s brutal, right? The subprime crisis.
Nadja Sayej: It was brutal for everybody. Everyone, you know, and the bank, don’t even get me started, but there was no money anywhere. And I had friends in Berlin who said, we’re in Berlin, we’re only paying dollar 200 a month for apartments. Just come to Berlin. And so I did. I bought a one way ticket and then I ended up staying there for many years.
Pearl Lam: Was it easy to find job center or to find articles to write with commission, with people commissioning you?
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, because it was more of an international hotspot to be based in Berlin than in Toronto.
Pearl Lam: Oh, yes, of course. Of course. You’re absolutely wrong.
Nadja Sayej: Like Toronto, it’s great to go to, like, for culture. Toronto International Film Festival every September. But if you’re there twelve months of the year, it’s much harder. So we don’t really have a Hollywood in Canada. We don’t have a center of production. I mean, some people might want to argue that with me, that’s great. But let’s face it, a lot of the great Canadians, Jim Carrey, the Weekend, Drake, they all are based in LA. So I went to Berlin and yeah, I started writing for American publications, you know, Vanity Fair, London, also architectural Digest, Vice, which was based and still, probably still based in Williamsburg. And I was kind of like a foreign correspondent based in Europe. So whenever they needed anything in Berlin as well as anywhere in Europe, I could very easily hop on a plane and be anywhere and like an hour. So it was fun. Yeah. And I did that for many years. And that’s how I got into celebrity.
Pearl Lam: Introduce from art critics.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, I know.
Pearl Lam: How do you just step into entertainment, celebrity, you just.
Nadja Sayej: It depends on your connections with different publicists. You know what I mean? So PR agencies, like, so.
Pearl Lam: So how would a PR agency go and find out? Art critics. Okay, you do some entertainment news.
Nadja Sayej: No, I would get in touch with them and say, add me to your list, or I would go to all the film festivals, like Venice Film festival, the Berlin Alley, can all those places, and develop relationships with people there. And also you can ask questions at the press conferences to the celebrities there as well. So that’s like a good starting point. And then from there, you get the contacts of.
Pearl Lam: So in your mind, after a while, being an art critics, in your mind, you’re ready. Was ready to write about pop culture and then writing about. To write about celebrity.
Nadja Sayej: I mean, because, you know, when you.
Pearl Lam: Put it, going to the press conference, sticking up your hand, this is very strategic. That means that you. It’s in your mind that this is your career move.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, yeah. In Germany, you will learn how to do this type of thing. It’s a very. Yeah, it’s. I think that the society is much more disciplined, and people waste less time with puffy sort of conversations. They get very direct. They get to the point that insults other cultures, especially in America, which you’re expected to kiss a lot of ass. But I learned how to strategize an idea and sort of make it come true. But in terms of going from art criticism, I mean, look, I mean, I wrote about art for the Guardian for many years as an arts reporter, and I loved it because writing about art is something that I can do with my hands tied behind my back. So it’s so natural to me. You know what I mean? If you can do something great, you should do it. But there was also two factors working against me. A, it’s hard to make a full living just writing about art.
Pearl Lam: That’s true. Absolutely right.
Nadja Sayej: Unless you have a trust fund. And if you do, good for you. Second thing is, is the art world can be really infuriating sometimes. And so it can be a very difficult place. You can’t really be critical of anything anymore.
Pearl Lam: Really.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. I feel like art criticism is dead. I do. I really do. I think criticism is alive on, you know, like the voice or on American Idol.
Pearl Lam: Okay, having said this.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: Now I want to ask you, is eye criticism essentially, do you think that today is today with the social media, with the popular culture, you know, because they’re artists who actually becomes very successful in social media, may not be endorsed by the academic museum world?
Nadja Sayej: No, I think that press is important. I think vanity profiles are very important for people because if you have an article written about you, you can link it to your Wikipedia page, which validates you as a person to have a Wikipedia profile. And let’s face it, Wikipedia is the digital graveyard. That’s where we all want to be. So we’re remembered and our legacy continues on after us. You can’t validate that digital legacy by linking social media links because Wikipedia will not accept it. You need press links, you need legitimate press links from top news sources, CNN, BBC, Financial Times.
Pearl Lam: But there’s still a lot of art and artists, they are quite low profile as such. They don’t have Instagram. The older generation especially.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, of course.
Pearl Lam: So how, I mean, you know, in the very structure art world is, you have the players there. Right. And then, you know, our criticism and our journalism, our journalism is to promote the profile. It’s not necessarily giving you critics. So in your mind, this new generation especially wrote for Gen Z. This is no longer essential.
Nadja Sayej: No.
Pearl Lam: So how does people know what good art is and what is bad art?
Nadja Sayej: By seeing who journalists and who publications decide to cover and put the spotlight on. I ran a video art criticism show called Art Stars TV from 2009 or 10 until I think, 16, and it was video art criticism because I thought criticism is a conversation. It’s not necessarily, I write a bad review about your show and then the conversation’s over. I mean, give people an opportunity to at least retaliate or, you know, talk about it. If I think that this is bad and I can explain why can an artist defend themselves? And then it becomes a conversation. Good art criticism is a conversation. But I got in so much trouble and I got kicked out of so many galleries and, yeah, I got legal cases thrown at me like it was such drama.
Pearl Lam: So you actually built up a very inverted, common, dynamic profile.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, pretty much. By saying, art criticism is not dead. I’m going to do this. I’m going to criticize art that I think is bad, and all you do is make enemies. The time of Clement Greenberg being this respected voice of criticism is gone. Unless you’re a man. Look at Hans Ulrich Obrist.
Pearl Lam: Exactly.
Nadja Sayej: You know, he’s also a curator, though.
Pearl Lam: Yeah, that’s true. That’s true.
Nadja Sayej: That’s a difference.
Pearl Lam: That’s true. And all the artists has to grapple to him because they, you know, he’s a great curator.
Nadja Sayej: Right. And so that’s why he gets that respect. But if you’re just some freelance writer who’s writing for some publications, and you happen to be a woman and you’re from Canada with a byline that’s, you know, smells like falafel. I mean, good luck to you. You know what I mean? Like, I just don’t know if it’s. I just think art writing needs to have more of a sense of humor.
Pearl Lam: Absolutely. I agree. I absolutely agree. I think in art today, especially art, it’s too much self importance.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, there’s a lot of that. It feels like every art gallery show, artists are acting like it’s a museum exhibition. And then for every museum exhibition, people are trying to humble themselves and act like it’s only a gallery show. So there’s a bit of kind of, you know, reverse confidence going on with those types of things. But, you know, it’s okay to be criticized. I mean, I get my books reviewed and criticized as well. I mean, everybody gets criticized. Everybody has an opinion today, but.
Pearl Lam: So at the time when you moved to Berlin, you’re still writing art critics.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. Yeah.
Pearl Lam: And then until you find your opportunity and start focusing on celebrity.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: Or pop culture.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, exactly. And the great thing about writing and interviewing celebrities in Europe is that there’s not the same, or at least back then when I was doing it, there wasn’t the same amount of control and pressure and security.
Pearl Lam: Security? What do you mean by security?
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. I could go up to Salma Hayek at the Venice film Festival and, you know, touch her and ask her for a few shots, sit down, stand up, talk to her, get a few calls.
Pearl Lam: You mean that now, today, you can’t.
Nadja Sayej: You can’t even get close to her. I, not in America, because there’s much more security. You know, there’s a lot of pr people. They control the shots. They control the questions. They control the amount of minutes that you get. Like, it’s, it’s like hyper control. They get to look at the pictures and choose them before you publish them. Like, it’s, they get, they have way too much control. But if they don’t have that control, I don’t get the interview. So it’s either I give them all the control or I get nothing. Oh, yeah.
Pearl Lam: So now compare from the art critics criticism. You have a, you have a hard time and doing celebrity, but celebrity, there must be a lot of competitions as well, right?
Nadja Sayej: I think a little bit more, yeah.
Pearl Lam: And so what makes you then decide to do celebrity? Gave up.
Nadja Sayej: I mean, I still write about art then and now. I do. I just needed a bit of a break, but yeah, I write about art for the observer. I just go in, you know, write about shows. I ask them to leave me alone, and then I leave. I only write about museum shows. I don’t even bother touching the gallery world, really, because, again, they want to control everything, and they’re more sensitive to writing, even if it’s, you know, excuse me, Orland’s name is spelt in all caps. Can you please correct that in every part of your article? You know, to, you know, just like, whatever. She didn’t mean this. She meant that. And I was like, okay, so then, you know, the fact checking is, like, after the article is published is extra work for my editor. And, you know, a lot of these publications are running on skeletal teams. You know, I know some Conde Ness magazines that are running their entire magazine on just four editors.
Pearl Lam: Wow.
Nadja Sayej: You know, it’s a lot.
Pearl Lam: So, because nowadays, magazine publication invests very little on the newsroom or the press room.
Nadja Sayej: They don’t see the value in advertising. They would rather spend the money on giving the money to an influencer to do a reel or a post. And I know a European influencer who gets $4,000 per Instagram post to promote a brand, and they only have 500,000 followers. So you can imagine if you have well over a million, and they think that that’s more valuable than, you know, investing in a Conde Nast magazine, for example.
Pearl Lam: I mean, one of the questions that I think people from the outside art world will ask is, okay, you know, I don’t know art, so I have to read this. Art and art critics. So does all the art critics go to see the art physically? I mean. I mean, visit galleries? Visit instead of just looking virtually or digitally.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, you should, because, I mean, seeing an artwork in real life is very different than just looking at it online, because there’s texture, there’s light, there’s just. There’s so much more, and then you can write about it. I feel like in a deeper sense, if you see it in real life, you’re also going to have to deal with pesky people who are going to come up and interrupt your experience. But it is nice if a gallery or museum has a seat somewhere where you can sit there and look at the work and absorb it, you know, take notes. But I don’t know if people still do that. I don’t. I think everybody has a different methodology.
Pearl Lam: Let’s talk about the pop culture.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: Okay.
Nadja Sayej: It’s way more interesting than art.
Pearl Lam: Yeah. I’m a gallery, so I can’t say that.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, I do not love. I can say that.
Pearl Lam: Of course you can say. Okay, let’s talk about the pop culture. I mean, you are very involved with cop with pop culture. Do you think these, I mean, USA especially. I think us pop culture has been defined the world. I mean, people just followed, followed the pop culture and how. I want to know your take about pop cultures. And when do you start, start with these writing about pop cultures?
Nadja Sayej: I think that, yeah, in Berlin, more and more people were coming to the city, like Jean Paul Gaultier. He was doing costumes for this performance at the Friedrichstadt-Palast.
Pearl Lam: Is it the performance about him? Because there was one performance about Gorshaw.
Nadja Sayej: It was later. Yeah, that was later.
Pearl Lam: Oh, that was later.
Nadja Sayej: So I think he started out designing some costumes, and they were just so stunning. So I got access to him and he was so nice, and he sat down with his publicist and he gave me a good 30 minutes. He was such a kind, generous person. And Orlan is another one who was great, who I. And then, I mean, I don’t know, it just kind of snowballed. I tried to get onto different press lists and different invites to things, or sometimes I just found out that somebody was coming to town. Like David Hasselhoff came to Berlin to try and save the last strip of the Berlin Wall before it was being shut, like, taken down. So condos were going up. I think they’re up now. But he came back to sort of like, you know, fight for that. So when celebrities use their name for a cause, a good cause, hopefully, then, yeah, it’s great. But, I mean, most of these people are just living their lives. That said, some celebrities do become artists, like Sylvester Stallone. He’s a painter now. So is Adrian Brody. He paints fish. But let me ask, so is Sharon Stone.
Pearl Lam: Let me ask you, I always know that artists can be celebrity, but, yeah, can celebrity be known as an artist? In my world, I know it’s pretty impossible.
Nadja Sayej: Well, they’ll never be fully taken seriously.
Pearl Lam: No, because hardware doesn’t like anybody who became a big name, not because of art.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, and that’s the problem. I mean, I do think that it’s good for celebrities like Sharon Stone to paint and have exhibitions because it brings in a new audience to come into an art gallery or museum who wouldn’t otherwise go in ever to a gallery. They just want to come because this is art made by a celebrity and they want a picture with it, or they want a picture with her, or they want to come to the buzz of the opening or whatever, but that’s.
Pearl Lam: Not really going there to really appreciate.
Nadja Sayej: You know, unless you know, the story behind it. She did a talk with Jerry Saltz at the 92 Y, and she talked about the artwork and, you know, how it comes from trauma and, like, you know, after her illness, she couldn’t go back to acting, so it was like a healing mechanism to paint. And some of the paintings are quite good. Does she still have a long way to go? Yes, I do think she does have a long way to go. I don’t think sometimes celebrities get, I think get a little bit too much credit when their work is not ready enough to be shown or it’s not tightly enough curated in a series. Does that make sense?
Pearl Lam: Absolutely. Because I think a lot of, I mean, if you are a celebrity trying to be an artist or you paint because you feel like you are an artist, but a lot of artists has to have a curators that guide the director. It’s very tough. It’s very tough in the art world anyway. So being a celebrity is not a positive thing to become an artist unless.
Nadja Sayej: You’Re a celebrity judge who collects art.
Pearl Lam: Even if you collect art, they will say, you know, it’s still very difficult.
Nadja Sayej: But if you go to Art Basel, and you see Leonardo DiCaprio and Puff Daddy walking around buying art, buying.
Pearl Lam: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if they collect art, it’s okay, that’s fine. But not being, you know, a color. I thought you were saying that. Oh, they became a collector from. A collector becomes art.
Nadja Sayej: No, no, no. If they collect art, and then that artist could say, hey, Leonardo DiCaprio collects my artwork, it’s completely different.
Pearl Lam: In the commercial world, money talks, right? Yeah, exactly. And this is like a brand, immediately say, oh, yes, exactly what you say. The Onados bought that, or whoever. It’s like a brand support, you know, being supportive and persuading people about how important.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, exactly.
Pearl Lam: This artist is.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. So definitely celebrity support helps an artist, but, you know, for the most part, it’s separate. If I get to talk to a celebrity, great. If I can sell that interview to an editor, excellent. But unless there’s a language barrier, it usually works out really good. But, I mean, what’s taking over the fashion world right now is K pop stars.
Pearl Lam: I know, I know.
Nadja Sayej: They’re taking all the front row seats and then people for, like, me, where now I write about fashion. You know, we’re given row two and three because we have to make way for, you know, these stars who show up. And the show is really about them.
Pearl Lam: Because K pop is so popular. And also, and I think we have to, thanks to Mickey Lee, who have this K pop week on weekend to promote K pop for many years in LA. And so it generates a lot of interest. And K pop star now is so huge. It’s very around the world. Even in France during the fashion show, you have all the K pop stars.
Nadja Sayej: City wall, and people go crazy for it. People are just there to photograph them and get videos of them and they hold up little, you know, this is.
Pearl Lam: For the young people.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, yeah. But the young people are the ones who are much more active on.
Pearl Lam: Of course. Of course they’re gonna do.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. They’re gonna engage much more.
Pearl Lam: So have you, have you, have you interviewed a K pop star?
Nadja Sayej: No. I’ve even tried. I went to Seoul last year for Soul Fashion Week to write about that. And even trying to talk to the designers, it was so hard to understand what they were saying because their english.
Pearl Lam: Is just not good enough.
Nadja Sayej: Well, they just, they have no need to really speak English if they’re just, you know, local fashion designers. So I try and just do all my interviews with them through email.
Pearl Lam: And then how do you move from pop culture to fashion? Fashion journalist? My God.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, I know. You know, fashion I like to think of, and a lot of people are gonna hate me for saying this, but I think of it as airhead journalism.
Pearl Lam: Bravo.
Nadja Sayej: It’s just very direct. It’s so light, it’s so fun. You’ve got models, you’ve got designers. Everything is very kiss kiss. No criticism, you know, except for maybe, maybe Suzy Menkez. She’s the last.
Pearl Lam: Susie would say that this is not good. This is good and all that, but.
Nadja Sayej: She’s been in it for a long time. And Vanessa Friedman for the time, another one. Yeah, but besides a few of those, I mean, the rest of us, we don’t want to, but they have like, stable sort of, let’s say, tenured positions where, you know, their contract is a little bit more stable rather than freelance writers where it’s like if we write something bad one time and there’s a lawsuit threat against the publication, then we’re sort of dropped. So I don’t know. Yeah. Do I feel afraid to use my voice as a writer? Yeah, I guess so. Maybe that’s why I’ve become more of a photographer, to just take pictures and put fluffy captions.
Pearl Lam: So when you make a fashion critics, do you have the same reaction as making the art critics?
Nadja Sayej: No, I think fashion is different. I mean, you’re writing about design, it’s not art. And you’re not only writing about the work, you’re writing about who is there. You’re talking about what’s going on at fashion week at the moment, what’s going on in the city that you’re at, what’s going on in the world at the moment. Which famous influencer is being chosen to close the show? What the designer did when he came out and said hello to the audience. So it’s like all of these things in combination with the craftsmanship of the design. But it’s more than just, you know, going into a gallery museum and writing about paintings.
Pearl Lam: So it’s more exciting.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. It’s more dynamic, I think, you know, it’s more, it’s more three dimensional rather than one dimensional. So, I mean, I hope that art criticism continues without it being owned by academics, because academics don’t own art criticism. They don’t. It’s for the people. It’s for everybody.
Pearl Lam: So you are very different in that way because when we talk about popular art, right? Which is, which is, which they do in the social media that they promote, then these authors often enough is not accepted by the academic or the museum world. They may be very popular, yes, but they are not accepted. But now all the museum has problems because they want a younger generation.
Nadja Sayej: They do.
Pearl Lam: And they need younger visitors. So what are they going to do? Because these are artists that everybody, you may have millions of followers and that generate. And we would do a show tickets, right? So I, I saw there are museums whose bending rooms, who is having these artists into the, into the museum. Do you think this is right? Because. Because art. I mean, I know in America all museums are private museums. And in Europe there are governments, you know, especially in Germany. I love visiting things like some of the German museum because there’s no one that you feel that you own the whole museum, which is fantastic here is jampack. Because unique ticketing, right? So who, I mean, which endorsement is important? So a lot. I mean, last few days I heard about a lot of commands about the museum is compromising because they just want to sell tickets. The content of the museum is not as good. The exhibition is not as good.
Nadja Sayej: You know, I mean, a museum is not a studio apartment. It’s a very large space with many rooms. They can very well, you know, do two rooms devoted to, you know, their senior audience that will shut up the academics. And then they can have, you know, another four rooms that will have like a Yayoi Kusama show, which is great for taking selfies, which is the only reason why young people want to go to museums now.
Pearl Lam: Yeah, absolutely. Right. I think you can do both selfies.
Nadja Sayej: Right. It’s all about taking a selfie with art. If you can’t take a selfie with art, it’s not going to be successful today. And that’s terrifying.
Pearl Lam: So that’s terrifying. So what is the future of art then? I mean, if these artists, if these audiences only think about taking selfies, does not generally appreciate that art, and of course, conceptual art, they don’t even read. Yeah, they don’t, because they don’t read.
Nadja Sayej: So how do people understand it? Well, it depends on who you want to cater to. There’s some artists who have zero social media presence, and they are very successful, and they have a collector base and they have gallery, and they’re making a living off their work. If they can do that, great. They don’t even have to be on social media. Just like some actors. Like Emma Stone is not even on Instagram. Yeah. And she’s still like, you know, a top Hollywood actor who’s winning a lot of awards. You don’t necessarily need to have social media account. I was talking reinterpret history in a way that’s relevant to everybody today, and I love that. But it’s easier said than done.
Pearl Lam: Absolutely.
Nadja Sayej: How do you do that? So if, as long as artists are doing that, whether it’s in, you know, this selfie driven way or whether it’s in a boring, sort of two dimensional, flat way, as long as you’re getting to that goal, I think it’s fine.
Pearl Lam: They must have very good marketing team.
Nadja Sayej: I know, right?
Pearl Lam: Yeah. I mean, you have general news going out, and also they must have very good agent.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: That’s what it’s all about, to get, you know, opportunities.
Nadja Sayej: Because now artists didn’t have that 50 years ago, even 30 years ago, and.
Pearl Lam: Even today’s artists, I know, I know one of my artists who has 3 million followers. So and so here’s lots of. We have always left right and center for collaboration.
Nadja Sayej: That’s great.
Pearl Lam: I never have an artist who have collaboration. So I’m learning as well how, how the art world is evolving and it’s unfolding. So step by step with technology, everything is changing. So do you think the art movement will be changing as well?
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, I mean, you must make sure that you don’t overexpose an artist. So it just feels like a marketing ploy, because then that cheapens it. I mean, if you want to do a capsule collection, with a really high-end luxury brand. That makes sense. But if you’re just kind of like turning it into a t shirt and mug. Sort of key theory.
Pearl Lam: Exactly. I just recently, just yesterday, I have, I have McDonald’s asking the gallery for collaboration with one of the artists.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. It might not be the right.
Pearl Lam: Oh, absolutely. Wrong.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. So you have to be able to, you know, use.
Pearl Lam: Yeah. You have to cc, you know, different. Differently because.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Pearl Lam: It’s just not right.
Nadja Sayej: But it’s also in the book publishing world, too. I mean, for me, with all of my books, I self-publish my books. I pay for the printing of them. I release it on my own, you know, imprint. And, you know, I.
Pearl Lam: So if someone wants to buy your book, and they will have to. Do you have a website for it?
Nadja Sayej: I mean, I have my own website, but, yeah, I do sell them through blurb.com and then it’s like print on demand, and then they print out whichever ones sell and then ship it out. But if you want one from me that’s signed by me, then I have to physically sort of ship it out.
Pearl Lam: So even the publishing world is a big change.
Nadja Sayej: Well, I can’t get a book deal unless I have 40,000 followers. That’s just kind of what the rule is nowadays, what I know. So I can really. Yes, yes. You don’t know this? Yeah, no, they don’t want people who have no followers because you can’t sell any books and you have to, along with the book proposal, you have to also attach a marketing plan of how you’re going to invest your own money in order to do your own book tour. Because why is a publisher going to pay for it?
Pearl Lam: You have to pay for your own.
Nadja Sayej: Book tour, mostly, yeah. I mean, it depends on which publisher I’m talking about, but for the most part, yeah. They’re going to maybe get you one or two, like, you know, book signings, but that’s about it. If you want to really, you know, get out there. Yeah, it’s a different thing. But why are people doing books? Is it because they want to do the next Harry Potter? Is it, you know, to be a number one New York Times bestseller? Is it to tell their own story? Is it cultural criticism? You know, is it a photography book that also happens to be paperback? So it’s not so heavy to ship because it costs a fortune to ship.
Pearl Lam: Let’s start from the very beginning. What is your first book? Can we go through your book?
Nadja Sayej: Yes, yes.
Pearl Lam: And explain to me about the publishing industry, because I didn’t realize that.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: It’s so linked with social media.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, it’s very. I think everything maybe is now, unless you work in finance.
Pearl Lam: Please, please elaborate and tell me about your books, which is the first book, okay.
Nadja Sayej: It’s called getting your shit together. And it was like a guide that I wrote in 2010 of how artists can better promote themselves, you know, do their own business and be professional. Because back from the time when I went to art school, which was, you know, the early 2000s, we didn’t really learn about that today. You know, I think maybe art schools, at least in master’s programs, help prepare artists for the business world. But when you think about going back to when you went to school, even in elementary or middle or high school, there was no finance class. You had to figure out money on your own. And so I read a lot of books about that stuff and tried to apply it to artists. Is that first book that I wrote in 2010 still relevant today? I’m not sure, because many art writers have gone the route where they’ve stopped their art writing career. Same with gallerists and curators, and have become artist consultants, where they say, hey, do you want to figure out how the art gallery world works? Sign up to my masterclass, pay $200 through my Instagram, and then you can join me on Zoom once a week and let me teach you how you can do this. And there’s so many of these people capitalizing on artists, you know, that I.
Pearl Lam: Never knew the side. I mean, I’m learning so much.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: So on your first book, is this self-published or.
Nadja Sayej: It is self-published, and I just made it an eBook, and I sold the most out of all the books that I’ve written in that book. That’s my best selling one. I don’t know why, but people, I guess, needed it. Some people wrote me, I have to.
Pearl Lam: Introduce you to my publisher friend.
Nadja Sayej: Ah, that would be nice. Yeah. So, yeah, so that was the first one. The second one was a guide to Berlin, navigating Berlin. It was a time when Berlin was still. I mean, a lot of people, it depends on who you ask, but a lot of people will tell you Berlin’s glory years was, you know, the early 2000s or the late nineties or whatever. All I know is I arrived there 2010. The first few years was the glory years for me, but it was still at a point, even though it was an international city, where getting by exclusively in the English language was not possible. So I wrote a guide based on my experience on how to avoid the problems that I had to go through trying to think, what else did I write? I wrote a diary book called Snow White, True Story. And it was like a fiction book about a female rapper trying to make it in Berlin. So that was like a really fun sort of vacation from education books that I wrote to. I also wrote a book called Be an Ally Bitch, which is just about me going to all these art biennials. Because when you write about art, you have to go to a lot of biennials. And I was going to them everywhere. All over the world.
Pearl Lam: Yeah. Because every year there are so many outfits, so many biennials, and every week you’re traveling.
Nadja Sayej: Right. And so I went, you know, for when I was single, and I just was like, let’s just go to all of them. Who cares? And I went to all of them, and it was like, you know, some of them are boring. Some of them are interesting. But something. But don’t you mean funny happens?
Pearl Lam: Meet interesting people?
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, you do. But they only keep in touch with you if they think they can profit from you. It’s very difficult to find a real friend in them. Right? Yeah. So if you do find a real friend in them, amazing. Even if it is a friend you only see every two years, whatever. Right. It’s fine. But for the most part, people are there, you know, a little bit for a purpose, maybe more so in America than in Europe. It’s a little bit more relaxed. So Biennale bitch was, you know, short stories about being in the art world that are funny. Like comedy going, right.
Pearl Lam: I like that.
Nadja Sayej: Travel meets comedy, and I love doing that. I had to change some names in some instances, so I didn’t get into some trouble. And then the next one, I actually brought it with me. I’m gonna grab it.
Pearl Lam: Red carpet hoe. Red carpet ho.
Nadja Sayej: I know, it’s terrible. It’s like a slang word.
Pearl Lam: So what is that about?
Nadja Sayej: Celebrity book, celebrities and the PR shit show. And it’s really, you know, but. Because when you want to get into the celebrity journalism world, you have to spend a lot of time standing on a red carpet, unfortunately. Wow, here’s. Yeah. Kanye west on a yacht covered in silver, 2019, before all of his drama went down. You know, I got Heidi Klum and her Halloween party dressed as an alien. And it’s more. So the stories behind the photos and the experience of getting close to these celebrities. This is a great one. Spike Lee and his wife at the Venice Film festival. So it’s. This is, you know, a fun and interesting way of, you know, looking at getting close to the stars and what it’s really like. And then I realized at that point, because I think that book was released 2019, that that’s when people were, you know, Instagram was really taking over our brains. And so I released paparazzi bitch, which was my photo book of basically celebrities always taking pictures of celebrities in the moment where I’m not supposed to, not allowed. So I could also get kicked out by risking taking the shot. But then sometimes I would just take my camera and put it behind a curtain and then just take it. And then take it and then seeing what I got, so. But I do shoot for a photo agency, a paparazzi agency.
Pearl Lam: Paparazzi agency.
Nadja Sayej: I do shoot for a.
Pearl Lam: My God, your, your career.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: Completely evolved. You start with eye critics, which is basically an academic journalism.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: And then it evolve. You be. You’re a paparazzi.
Nadja Sayej: I know I do paparazzi on the side, but it depends, you know, is.
Pearl Lam: It because of interest or because of money?
Nadja Sayej: It’s interest. You’re definitely not making a lot of money in paparazzi unless you’re sitting in a car waiting outside their homes in Los Angeles. And I just don’t have time to do that. I’d rather show up on the red carpet when everybody’s in full glam and do, you know, arrivals out of cars and that type of thing. So you’re not getting the typical red carpet shot, but you’re still getting them.
Pearl Lam: You know, you are a very interesting person, Nadia, because usually when a person is academic, they do, they write for art critics. They would be ashamed to be, to be doing the paparazzi short. Let me tell you, you are amazing because you have so much confidence and you love yourself as you are. Yeah. And that is the most amazing thing, because what do you care about what other people.
Nadja Sayej: Well, the thing is, is that 20, 30, 50 years from now, when all these celebrities are dead, and hopefully I still have these photos, maybe I’ll be able to sell them in an art gallery.
Pearl Lam: Bravo.
Nadja Sayej: There are certain, there’s this very small niche of these high society photographers that existed in the past. Slim errands. Let me just try and think of more names. I mean, they’re all men, but it’s.
Pearl Lam: But there was a men’s world.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. There’s just different musician backstage with the Beatles and Rolling Stones. All of those photos. Obviously, there’s galleries that specialize only in that kind of, like historic photography. And I get that, and that’s totally fine. But I love looking at photos like that because they’re black and white, and it takes you back in the history, you know? And so I thought, what if I do that in my own present day? Maybe things that, you know, like opening this up. Okay, here’s photos that I took at Philip Plein’s house of him and his friends, you know, reality stars and actors. And there’s Ellen von Unworth, who’s also, you know, a fashion photographer. Maybe this will be understood very differently in ten years or 20 years from now compared to how, of course, retrospectively, today, it means nothing. Today, this photo is worth $0.05. Well, technically, this photo, this book is worth $25 plus shipping, which is an extra 30. But for outside of the country. Within the country, it’s only five. But that’s. That’s just kind of, you know, it depends. Time changes things. That’s what I’m saying.
Pearl Lam: Yeah, time changes things. And even the way that you present your books are different.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: Because you’ve taken, you know, people have short, short attention span.
Nadja Sayej: Yes.
Pearl Lam: So you’re doing all your books like. Like they’re reading through Instagram.
Nadja Sayej: Exactly, exactly. And it makes me sad because, you know, being able to read a book from beginning to end is such a fulfilling experience, but you have to adapt with the times.
Pearl Lam: So doesn’t it show to you the new generation? Is it because of technology or because of the upbringing? You know, that completely the lifestyle change and therefore the artwork, the appreciation of art will be changed as well.
Nadja Sayej: It will in the future, for sure. I love, there’s a Canadian writer and artist, Douglas Copeland, and he says this famous thing, one of his artworks, I miss my pre Internet brain, and I love that because I remember the time I grew up without the Internet.
Pearl Lam: And my memories are better as well. I can remember all telephone numbers, and now you just click and you don’t use any of your brain. Brain cell to remember things.
Nadja Sayej: And also the writing of writers before the Internet Times was so good. Like, just go back and read any articles in Vanity Fair from 2005 and before that, and it’s like, long, I love Vanity Fair. Long, long reads of, like, you know, eight-page features. Now it’s shrunken down to two pages, which they have to do because, I mean, they’re adapting to the times. I get it. But, yeah, vanity Fair, like, that’s the epitome of glamour, right? That’s been a huge inspiration for me. Yeah. That’s why I make them all black and white photos. You know, there’s Amanda Lepore, you know, like a total amazing superstar. Also amused, David LaChapelle. Who’s an incredible photographer, too. Absolutely.
Pearl Lam: So, yeah, we represent David le Chapelle. So, of course, I would say, ah, I loved Le Chapelle.
Nadja Sayej: I’ve interviewed, every time I’ve interviewed him, I’ve just felt, yeah, he’s such a genuine person and sweet. Very sweet.
Pearl Lam: Very sweet.
Nadja Sayej: And humble.
Pearl Lam: Humble, yeah.
Nadja Sayej: With considering that he has defined, he defined glamour in the late.
Pearl Lam: He really defined glamour. And then he dropped everything. He dropped all the, and all the commercial money, everything, and determined to become an artist.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. And just went to Hawaii and said, forget all this celebrity bullshit. I’m done with it. I want to live my life. And he became a much more spiritual. And, you know, what? If he wanted to do that, good for him, and that was, that’s also a good thing for other people to see because, you know, that high life of fame and glamour is a lot of courage. It’s not. Yeah, it is. But good for him, you know, I mean, if that’s what he doesn’t want, he could probably go and ask for a photo shoot with any celebrity in the world, and they’re gonna say yes, you know, but if he doesn’t want to do it anymore, he doesn’t have to. But so, yeah, I mean, is there a dark side to fame on that respect? Yes, there is. Has it changed? Yes. Paparazzi photography was born in Italy, you know, La Dolce Vita, what, in the 1950s, Fellini. Yeah, exactly. And, you know, it changed and became a very American thing, you know, with victimhood of Britney Spears and Paris Hilton, you know, in the early two thousands. And now the way that it works with photo agencies is celebrities pay the photographers and give out, you know, tips to the paparazzi of when to show up at what corner, so they can generate their own fame and wear the clothing that’s sponsored by certain fashion designers.
Pearl Lam: And so they would get the advertisement.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: Wow.
Nadja Sayej: So it’s their own self-generated advertising now. It’s very different game, but for me, I just like taking off the cuff, casual shots of people where they know that they’re being photographed, but it’s maybe not so posed, because now we live in a time where face tune, Photoshop, all these things have, like, creates too much of a filter, creates a distance.
Pearl Lam: Because everyone, I mean, they’re over sharing. I mean, I go with friends. They want to take pictures of every single dish, to pose, to share and all that, you know, they want to take pictures with all the celebrity and posing.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. And it’s like, what does a celebrity selfie even mean anymore? Like, congratulations. Is that what artwork should be? Like, a wax museum of celebrities? Like, that’s. I don’t know. I don’t know how I feel about selfie art. A lot of pop-up museums have. Have started, like, traveling, van Gogh, digital.
Pearl Lam: You know, the immersive exhibition. I think that all these immersive exhibitions, also for the Gen Z, because they have no interest of seeing things too long, and they don’t want to be in a place with a white wall or in museum settings. And so it’s like an education thing, and that’s why they go for it.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. And, I mean, it’s also for children, too. Maybe it’s for families.
Pearl Lam: All that is.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. So we also have the museum of ice cream in New York.
Pearl Lam: Ice cream, really?
Nadja Sayej: There’s, I don’t know, big, you know, things that look like ice cream. It’s like pastel art. I mean, whatever. If you have a family and you want to do a day outing, great. But, I mean, it’s going to cost you, you know, $45 a person or whatever it is. It’s not. It’s not cheap, but, I mean, if you just want some nice photos with your kids, maybe that’s the way to do it.
Pearl Lam: Give me. Give me your opinion about the role of contemporary art in the pop culture.
Nadja Sayej: Well, I mean, a good example, Kanye west is in Milan doing some fashion launch. Nobody’s paying attention to him anymore. He’s a person, non grata. But he did hire John Rafman, who’s a Canadian artist based in New York, to make a promo video for him.
Pearl Lam: Wow. But he did a performance art, and at the Blum and pole gallery in LA, there was like, five, six years ago.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. You know, and so whenever we see this collaboration between pop culture and the art world, you know, like Jay Z showing up at a gallery, or Marina Abramovic, you know, who’s such a good interview? One, definitely. One of my favorite interviews is Marina Abramovic. But that’s when we really see two worlds really converging.
Pearl Lam: But a lot of them is, as you know, we were talking about before, these celebrities collecting the art, they’re meeting the artists, and then they have this bond. And also, the artists love to hang out with the celebrities, like the Hollywood star, which is a good branding for them.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, it adds credibility to.
Pearl Lam: It adds credibility.
Nadja Sayej: You’re gonna see that more in LA, maybe in New York, but abroad, like in Hong Kong, I’m not so sure. I mean, our K pop star stars gonna be flying over to.
Pearl Lam: Oh, they did. They did one of, I think, G Dragon. They flew to the Abbas, Hong Kong, 2001, a 219. Okay, so one of these pop stars, stars also got invited by Sotheby’s during the auctions. So they do, because several of those are big collectors. Okay, are big art and art collectors. One of them, I could not remember who was. Was big collector on, even met all the artists. They communicate.
Nadja Sayej: So how do we understand art? Through the lens of pop culture, through lifestyle journalism, through interior design, through these business founders who are creating these virtual companies that are competing with galleries and that sell art virtually and, you know, create this environment where you can see how something looks in your home before you buy it. That’s much more affordable. That’s getting people into art collecting these days, as well as going to the Soho house and getting an art walk and learning about the galleries locally in your neighborhood, whether it’s the lower east side or outside.
Pearl Lam: And also, and also, I think collecting art is very different now because there’s several reasons why you collect art. One is your friends has it, you have it, and it’s a social circle called talk. You know, you talk about art socially. Second of all, is statist.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: And then investment.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, investment too. I mean, investment is the trickiest.
Pearl Lam: Yeah. Because I, you know, recently I was with some friends and they were saying to me, oh, oh, I’m buying this because it’s an asset.
Nadja Sayej: Right.
Pearl Lam: And I said, okay, right. So they very clearly separate. The blue chip is the acid, and the. This is for decoration.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah, absolutely.
Pearl Lam: Yeah. So I think art, the art collecting has democratized and is getting huge, bigger and bigger, for whatever reason people are seeing.
Nadja Sayej: Right. And hopefully, I mean, is it cheapening art collecting, or is it making better because more people are doing it?
Pearl Lam: I think it’s not even about that. It’s about the good old days, traditionally, because it’s only collecting by the elite. And then the museum is showing, which is a good art and a bad art, whatever the museum is and is the. Is the leader of everything. And they can say the establishment that determines what is good, what is bad, what is this, and what is that. But nowadays, because it is being democratized, so art becomes asset, so investment. Second of all, is social media. Social media will be telling you what is good or bad, because all of a sudden, there’s one artist has millions of followers. So all of a sudden, they become very important.
Nadja Sayej: But also, then that raises the question of, can people think for themselves? Or are they just going to like and buy artwork that seems to have a lot of followers and popularity? Just because their friends like it, I.
Pearl Lam: Think they like to follow, but they, because they don’t have confidence. And then also, of course, and of course there are people with confidence. I always said in art world is 99.9% are followers. And then you have that small percentage. They are the leaders because they are confident with what they’re buying, because it’s very intimidating when you come in, and especially new buyers, they don’t dare to ask questions. So what are they going to do? They will buy things. What they see, everybody’s talking about.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: So I think this is a very different world. World. And altogether. And now with the US China conflict. And then I always been reading a lot of negative news about China, whereas while, like, five, six years ago, every single news is how great China is, is. So now what is it? What is the perception in us about China?
Nadja Sayej: I think that it’s changing not only about China, but in Asia in general. I think chinese fashion designers, for example, are really making their stamp on things like Paris Fashion Week, Milan Fashion Week, New York Fashion Week, bringing something very different and eclectic that we wouldn’t normally see here. Much more architectural designs informed by history. We’re also seeing, you know, cultural things like Chinese New Year being more so celebrated here. Oh, really?
Pearl Lam: Chinese New Year?
Nadja Sayej: Yes. Well, I know.
Pearl Lam: I cannot believe it.
Nadja Sayej: The year of the Dragon will be good.
Pearl Lam: Oh, I hope, right? Yeah.
Nadja Sayej: So for me, as a monkey, it would be good.
Pearl Lam: So.
Nadja Sayej: But, you know, are the perceptions and the cliches of China changing? Yes, I hope so. And also a lot of, you know, let’s say, fashion brands, like, you know, let’s face it, China’s the fashion production center of the world.
Pearl Lam: Yes. Because the manufacturing power is all there and they are, you know, that’s crazy. I went to some factory factories there. It’s amazing.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. And it’s becoming much more. I haven’t seen it with my own eyes, but I’m reading that it is becoming more sustainable. So let’s hope that there’s going to be more of that in the future. But in terms of contemporary art is, you know, Hong Kong and Shanghai put on the map. Yes. Are we gone past the days of AI WeiWei? Sort of, you know, going up against the government in a really, you know, stern way? I was there when he got off the plane, really, and came to Berlin and did the press conference. And he’s a very lovely person. I mean, he’s been through a lot of, obviously, I mean, depending on how you look at it, but a great artist. But that was just such a different time when AI was first released.
Pearl Lam: It was how many years? Like ten years ago almost. Yeah.
Nadja Sayej: And I have pictures of him in that experience as well. But is China slowly being accepted to be more in the mainstream pop culture of America? Yes. What is mainstream pop culture? It’s American culture. Americans don’t.
Pearl Lam: Exactly.
Nadja Sayej: Americans don’t see that. They don’t realize that. They don’t know it. They don’t.
Pearl Lam: Hollywood is the best propaganda machine to promote American culture.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. And a lot of people don’t see that in terms of.
Pearl Lam: And I’m drinking Diet Coke all the time.
Nadja Sayej: See what I mean? And you should have a glass right now. So you’re promoting the brand.
Pearl Lam: You don’t have a Diet Coke. Yeah, I would love to.
Nadja Sayej: Right. So will it be accepted more so with mainstream pop culture, like films and tv shows? It’s taking time, but there is more acceptance happening, you know? Yeah.
Pearl Lam: Yeah. Because, I mean, diversity, which is on for the last. I mean, for the last ten years, you. And you can see that there are nearly every single tv or movies major. They always have an Asian there.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah.
Pearl Lam: Whether it’s Indian, Korean, Chinese, but they always have an Asian. Definitely. There’s a lot of African American. Definitely. Every single one. Every single movie has. So I think that has generated change.
Nadja Sayej: Yeah. And we have AAPI month as well, which celebrates Asian culture every year.
Pearl Lam: But thank you.
Nadja Sayej: Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Pearl Lam: So, I mean, you taught me a lot.
Nadja Sayej: Oh, good.
Pearl Lam: My mind.
Nadja Sayej: Good. I’m glad to hear that.
Pearl Lam: Thank you, Nadia. Yes.
Nadja Sayej: Thank you for having me.
