Pearl Lam (林明珠): Welcome to the Pearl Lam Podcast. I’m in Brooklyn, sitting inside Leonardo Drew’s studio. Leonardo Drew is one of my favorite artists, even though sometimes he’s horrible to me. Leonardo, can you tell the audience little bit about yourself? Because there are audience who are not even in the art world. How horrible you are to me!

Leonardo Drew: That would be the whole story. We’re going to tell only half the story. That means only all the good things. The fact that you invited me to China, which I am so in debt for this, it’s a magical situation, being able to do, what, four years, I think, back and forth to China. I mean, that long ass plane ride is problematic, but in the end, it’s the kind of experiences that I had there with the folks in Ninguzhen, in the foundry. You know, it was just. I mean, my work is still affected by that situation. The colors were not a part of how I saw things and works before China. And I don’t know if you recognize that fact, but colors all of a sudden became a thing.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yeah, I saw. So can you kindly just say how you all started?

Leonardo Drew: How I started?

Pearl Lam (林明珠): How they started?

Leonardo Drew: I was born. Born an artist. I mean, I think that most true artists are actually born that way. Meaning, like, we’re addicts and we have to make. My mother was not necessarily supportive, but I think having that obstacle definitely rooted me into understanding that I am actually this. I am an addict.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): You grew up in Connecticut, right?

Leonardo Drew: I grew up in Connecticut, was born in Tallahassee. Mother moved us to Connecticut for work. And then from there, it was just, you know, meeting you know, some of the folks who were doing the comics, like Marvel and DC comics.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Yes, I was told 14 years old.

Leonardo Drew: We were making money.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): 13 years old, you were making money by drawing cartoons for Marvel.

Leonardo Drew: Yeah, well, they didn’t, they hadn’t hired me. They were asked. They were asking me to sort of join them. So it was either DC or Marvel. And I think at the time, the Superman movie was out with Christopher Reed, and DC was using it as sort of like a bargaining chip. So to get me to sort of like, you know, work with them and not with Marvel, my half times have changed, you know, so it’s, like, interesting to sort of note that at 13, they were. Well, I was at that. You know, I was exhibiting at 13. When I was 16 was when they were approaching.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): I mean, 13, you were exhibiting where? Where do you exist?

Leonardo Drew: In a place. Westport, Connecticut, which is the richer or ritzier side of Connecticut, you know, where I grew up in Bridgeport and the projects and, you know, with the landfill actually surrounded our projects. And people say, you know, well, that’s why I was inspired or this and that. But the truth of the matter is, I didn’t use that as my playground. No one else actually saw worth in that material, but I did. And Bridgeport being what it is, I mean, it’s like a version of Detroit, you know, always bankrupt and growing up in the hood definitely honed my survival skills. Interesting. When DC and Marvel had approached me, you would have thought that I would use that as a. Yeah, but a.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Child growing up in a project, your parents, your mother must be so worried that you want to draw instead of doing some useful jobs that were secure income.

Leonardo Drew: Well, this is the very reason why she wasn’t supportive.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, of course. Of course. I can and I can understand, but, but when you go to school, how do you find out that you, you know, you have this artistic talent?

Leonardo Drew: Well, I mean, like I said, was drawing on everything and anything, so it wasn’t like it was a hidden thing. I mean, it’s like, yeah, you know, it’s like my mother didn’t understand it, but, I mean, I needed to make. I needed to make things. And when I got to, you know, Catholic school, the nuns, you know, they said, you know, you know, Leonardo, like Leonardo da Vinci. And I was like, wow, all this time I had been getting beat up for this name and realizing that there’s another Leonardo.

Pearl Lam: Oh, my God

Leonardo Drew: In the projects.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): African American Leonardo.

Leonardo Drew: That’s a beating. That’s a beating. So it’s like. And I endured that until I learned that Leonardo da Vinci. Yes, indeed.

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Leonardo da Vinci.

Leonardo Drew: For namesake, you know, I have to grab at that one. You know? So, yeah, I’m.

Pearl Lam: So. Your mother must be very proud. At the age of 13, you start making money.

Leonardo Drew: Well, I mean, at that time, she’s like, okay, where’s my cut? There’s no way of sort of like, you know, hiding, you know, a 13 year old hiding that much money coming in from selling art. And, you know, if I’m making these, you know, paintings and drawings, you know, in our small apartment, you know, she knew that this is this is a bankable situation.

Pearl Lam: Bankable. So by 60, when you have marvels in DC asking you. And she must be feeling very secure that you have a career.

Leonardo Drew: Yeah, well, I mean, I had to mess that up because once I saw Jackson Pollock, I was like, okay, and so you had to throw that out. You know, it’s like, there’s no way. No, no. It’s like. No. I mean, you know, it’s one thing to have that kind of facility, but to understand what to do with it. I mean, you look at Jackson Pollock, it’s like. It’s like a no brainer. I mean, he is penetrating the surface. He’s actually. His work is. You know, there’s substance behind that surface. So I think that that was what I was reading, and I was affected by that. And obviously, it led me into abstraction, you know? So I gave up on this idea.

Pearl Lam: So you took all the money you saved and then got yourself into art college.

Leonardo Drew: That’s right. That’s correct. At Parsons School of Design

Pearl Lam:Yeah. But that’s pretty amazing. You know, you save money at age of 13.

Leonardo Drew: Yeah. You know, interesting. I mean, if you’re growing up the way I grew up, you had to sort of figure out what you’re gonna be doing, what you’re. You know, how is your future gonna.

Pearl Lam: Play out but being an African American. Okay. After Parsons, is it easy to keep in mind?

Leonardo Drew: I transferred to Cooper Union. I was only Cooper Union.

Pearl Lam: And then. And then. Is it easy to establish an artist’s career as a black. Yeah, black artist.

Leonardo Drew: No. Hell, no.

Pearl Lam: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. It’s tough right now.

Leonardo Drew: Keep it also in mind that Jack Whitten was teaching at.

Pearl Lam: Oh, I love Jack Whitten’s.

Leonardo Drew: Well, I mean, no one knew who Jack was. I mean, interesting that only in recent history, as Jack sort of made his mark. Yeah. It’s only recently as an old man, but when I knew him, he was a much younger person teaching at Cooper Union and vantastic. He became my mentor father and visited him like probably every summer, like from 1990 to like 99 in Greece.

Pearl Lam: Wow.

Leonardo Drew: So, no, we were very close. And in the end, the type of life that he projected was pretty obvious. It’s like you’re only gonna be allowed to teach. The mainstream was not interested in artists of color.

Pearl Lam: So as black artists at the time when you were growing up, the only example is being teacher, not being celebrated as an artist.

Leonardo Drew: And this is why he said it outright. Now, he introduced me to a number of other black artists, Mel Edwards, Romar Bearden, who was actually doing making headway. But the fact is that they only allowed, say, one or two. And I think that in the end, artists like Joe Overstreet, Jack William Till, I, you know, it’s a long list of artists who making serious works, abstractionists, but not being taken seriously by the mainstream and sort of like just, you know, pushed aside

Pearl Lam: You know what, I really need you after this, I’m going to give you an IG channel. This is a young girl whom I did a podcast with, and she started an IG channel called the Black History of Art. And all the museum people are following her. Only in her twenties, it’s amazing. Oh, yeah. And she was saying that when she went to Cambridge studying and there’s only two black artists of the artistry. And she felt so, you know, all this reaction and so she established this channel. Then what pushes you?

Leonardo Drew: What prompted you have to make.

Pearl Lam: So even with that example, you’re still making it. And then after Cooper Union, how do you start?

Leonardo Drew: Well, I mean, you sort of figure out how if you’re going to make, if you have twenty four, seven of you, that means that you need to sort of figure out how to make that happen. I did have a job at Christie’s East for two years.

Pearl Lam: Doing what?

Leonardo Drew: Saving money. I mean, I was head of the video department there. And video, believe it or not, they had a video department. We would go around and videotape different estates and that’s how they would sell, you know, the items and those estates. And so, I mean, I saw what kind of money I was making. I said, you know, if I save this much money, I can actually take two years off. And I saved that money and never looked back, you know, when I took the time off, you know, the rest is history. I never, I never had another job. We talking damn near 30 something years ago, maybe.

Pearl Lam: I’m sorry, Leonardo, you are doing cartoons from cartoons, doing these work. This work has material cost, right?

Leonardo Drew: That’s correct.

Pearl Lam: So you need to have not just, I mean, normal things, just paint brushes. These will cost money and cost time

Leonardo Drew: That’s correct.

Pearl Lam: You think two years is enough to create?

Leonardo Drew: You know, interesting that I thought with certainty that, you know, I just needed two years to sort of have that twenty four seven of me. And things were. And they did. I mean, you can make.

Pearl Lam: Do you create these works and how these works

Leonardo Drew: I mean, but we’re talking, I mean.

Pearl Lam: Choking some wood and

Leonardo Drew: Well, I mean, you know, like the first successful piece that I created is number eight, which I do own was made up of like dead animal parts and ropes and strings. It’s actually like a sculpted version of Jackson Powell. Yeah, you know.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, I saw the picture.

Leonardo Drew: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But the, you know, it’s a matter of will and belief that, you know, like, this is what you’re put on earth for.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, but then, but then who. Which is your gallery? Did you have a gallery?

Leonardo Drew: You’re thinking in a way that’s kind of linear. And I don’t think art is actually made that way. It’s not done that way.

Pearl Lam: But you have to show, right?

Leonardo Drew: No, no, no. This is. Keep in mind that this is not something that black artists were. We’re not supposed to be. You’re not going to be supported, but you have to make. I wanted two years of just making had nothing to do with actually exhibiting and selling art. It was just like, you have to make the work. Yep. Two years. Give me two years of me making. And then, you know, you know what the trips wall were

Pearl Lam: They made, you know, so for two years, you simply. It would just be. So number eight, I presume, is your 8th work.

Leonardo Drew: Yes, but the other from one to seven. You know, people say I cannibalize my work. You can only imagine that number eight is made up of one to seven.

Pearl Lam: Well, so from number eight, you feel more confident.

Leonardo Drew: At that point, people started talking.

Pearl Lam: You still show people, right?

Leonardo Drew: No, no, no, no. People like, you could have like art friends, artists who visit and they start doing like this.

Pearl Lam: Oh, yeah.

Leonardo Drew: and they start doing like this. And then the next it’s down the chain, and next thing you know, you got people visiting you, curators, people who are thinking about doing exhibitions. I need to put this guy in my exhibition. So it was like that can Gilliba Gallery was where I showed number eight for the first time.

Pearl Lam: So that means that all these art people that you have met, we’re talking artists. Artists, yeah, but you have to go to an environment. It’s your school, right? You went to the college you meet the.

Leonardo Drew: They came, my little apartment. My little apartment in the bathtub in Washington Heights. So they came to our apartment. They would see, like, oh, look, you know, art was all over the place. We’re talking. It was an apartment that was transformed into a studio space. So and then people were like, you know, slumming. They said, oh, you know, we need to, you know, like, rebels came out, and they were like, oh, my God. I heard about this crazy guy living in Washington Heights, sleeping in his bathtub, you know, making crazy stuff. And so, of course, mira and don came out and, yeah, mira and don, but there were others. There were tons of them, you know, but they were coming out to see the freak

Pearl Lam: But therefore, you, who was advertising friends were friends of friends.

Leonardo Drew: Yeah. People just talking. It works this way in new york. It works just like that.

Pearl Lam: So, okay, so after that, what was your next step?

Leonardo Drew: You get that exhibited? That number eight was exhibited. New York Times wrote about it, village Royce wrote about it. And magazines, they couldn’t stop writing about it. But mostly they were writing negative things because the idea is to stop you, if you’re a black artist, from coming into that door. So I needed to be stopped. They did the same thing with Basquiat, you know, and I fell not too far from that period. I was 19. That would have been 1988. Okay, so, yeah, 92 is when I came out and start really swinging. But 88 was when I introduced number eight. Yeah, so, yeah, they were like, you know. You know. You know, like, okay, is this art? You know, look at the material. It’s like he’s using dead animals. You know, it’s like, entangled in. You know, it’s like, what is this? You know, primitive. But at least a primitive.

Pearl Lam: At least your name is out there, which is the most important thing.

Leonardo Drew: I love the way you think, honey.

Pearl Lam: Yeah.

Leonardo Drew: I’m making things. I was not as, how do you say, like, um, self promotional as you’re portraying it. It has nothing to do with that. They were. That work was. It was. It was. It was speaking for itself. So it was. That was why it was getting all that attention now, aside from number eight. And then came 1992 is when I really, you know, came out and never came. It never went back under. But as a young artist, I mean.

Pearl Lam: You start 19, you were showing with.

Leonardo Drew: Thread waxing space, and then.

Pearl Lam: And then that. Is it a solo show?

Leonardo Drew: Yeah, that’s a solo show.

Pearl Lam: A solo show.

Leonardo Drew: So even cotton wall piece and even tumbling bags.

Pearl Lam: He’s beautiful.

Leonardo Drew: All kinds of.

Pearl Lam: But 19. So 1988, even with all the press going against you. It did not pull you down. It actually have other galleries inviting you to join the gallery. So it’s good.

Leonardo Drew: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s. Yeah. But it’s. It’s a. You know, they always came and got me. DC and Marvel came and got me. It wasn’t like I was a kid in the projects going out saying, okay, you please look at my. Oh, they came and got me then, and they came and got me later, you know.

Pearl Lam: And at your same era, how about the other black artists? Are they. Do they have the opportunity like you?

Leonardo Drew: Well, I think, you know, like, at that time was Gary Simmons coming out, Glenn Ligon, my friend Mary Ward. I’m trying to think who else would have, because Carol came later, much later. Bradford. They came later. We were working on kicking that door down. And between Lorna Simpson. Yeah, yeah. I mean, this is around that very same period where these artists were coming. We were coming out swinging. And, like, you know, my work is a lot different than Lorna’s and also Glenn and Gary.

Pearl Lam: But actually, your work is you either you love it or you run away from it.

Leonardo Drew: Yeah, but the fact is, you have to deal with it.

Pearl Lam: Yeah. You have to deal with it.

Leonardo Drew: Yeah, I’m still, you know, you know, a part of the conversation because you have to deal with me.

Pearl Lam: Yeah.

Leonardo Drew: You know, it’s just the way it is.

Pearl Lam: And so do you consider that your journey is. Has been harder than. And then you’re black, contemporary to be successful?

Leonardo Drew: I would say that’s. I mean, you know, the young artists who are coming out now. No, I mean, my God, you would think that they were walking in gold, you know, which, you know, it’s like. And I think that all, you know, like, credit to the artists who came and kicked that door down. But, you know, you are the generation who were kicking. Well, I mean, yeah, but, you know, the fact is that it’s undeniable that abstraction has beginnings on the continent of Africa. And, of course, by way of oceanic, native american, all these so called primitives are the forerunners of abstraction. Picasso, that primitivism exhibition that they had in 1983 at MoMA went backwards. They thought that they were going to sort of show that these primitives were being civilized by brack and Picasso and Salvador Dali, and just an endless array of artists who’ve gleaned and found their voices by way of these supposed primitives. But that was not the way that exhibition unfolded. Most people saw that, and they were like, oh, my God, this is actually the root, the beginning.

Pearl Lam: Yes. It was inspired by all these African masks, sculptures and all that.

Leonardo Drew: Exactly. Yeah. And obviously, I’m, you know, I am definitely a part of that lineage. You know? And you look at some of the great abstractions who are making works now. Jack Witten, Mark Bradford.

Pearl Lam: Yeah.

Leonardo Drew: You know, it’s just merit to Julia Merritt. I mean, it just goes on and on and on. But they’re heavy hitters. They’re heavy hitters and abstractionists. But guess what? That’s. It’s in our blood.

Pearl Lam: It’s in our blood because you really talk about those african artists in Africa. They are more of a figurative than the abstraction. But with your explanation, you can understand more. Absolutely. But how do you, you know, from drawing, sketching on the paper, to doing these very three dimensional works? And then how do you make that leap? Yeah. Every wood that you pick up, I mean, you oxidize it, you burnt it, you do all that sort of things. Where do you come about with your inspiration?

Leonardo Drew: There’s a sacrifice that has to be made. If you have that kind of facility, you have to understand that that was a crutch. You have to actually tie your hands and make an attempt to realize what is the next iteration or what’s possible. So that means that find another way. Figure out another way to create. You know, so don’t do this. Don’t draw and don’t paint all these things that you’re good at. Don’t do those things anymore. Figure out another way to create. Absolutely. That was that. That was the formula.

Pearl Lam: So you were pushing boundaries. Okay. Pushing yourself.

Leonardo Drew: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s not bravery. It’s nothing to do with bravery, by the way.

Pearl Lam: I don’t think it’s. And it’s bravery.

Leonardo Drew: I think it is the way that it’s an absolute.

Pearl Lam: Yes. And also it inspires you because you can push more.

Leonardo Drew: That’s correct. I think I’ve been doing that. That has been my formula from that. From those early days. I’m still doing that. So as soon as I begin to get comfortable, you know, and you think that I have a signature, then you defy that.

Pearl Lam: Because the first time I saw your work is at the Art Fair, and I thought it was. It was very dark because you love to use wood. Dark. And so recently, after your China trip, now has colors. I thought it was really raw and really primitive because you use the wood the different way of using. You make woods and you make things looks like fine object, but it’s not.

Leonardo Drew: But what’s become the weather. Yeah, but understanding, you know, of cosmically how things are put together. We are not separate from nature. In fact, we are the nature of nature. We are. Our disrespect of nature is the thing that gets us into trouble, because we like to separate ourselves from it and believe that we are superior to it. But in the end, the earth will continue on. Ask the dinosaurs about that one. We’ll be gone. So what we’re worried or concerned about actually inevitably ends up being about us. Whether or not we will survive, the earth will continue. We’ll move on to this next iteration.

Pearl Lam: What amazes me is, okay, you’re Black. You are African. Today, I went and saw your room. It’s all Chinese. Oh, Chinese. Chinese chairs. Chinese. Oh, my God. After I saw your room, I think your last life, you must be Chinese.

Leonardo Drew: You have more Asian, for sure, possibly Japanese. Your favorite other folks.

Pearl Lam: I mean, you have collected more Chinese collectibles than I ever have.

Leonardo Drew: Yeah. But there’s an underlying spirituality, obviously, to your culture, that’s probably closer to having an understanding of cosmic realities.

Pearl Lam: I was so shocked last time when I visited your studio with my Chinese artist. You wouldn’t even allow us to go up. You only took. Took Xiaobah, the Chinese artist, upstairs when.

Leonardo Drew: I saw deep respect for shuja.

Pearl Lam: You have a hidden side, and now I realize why you love China. I want to talk about your experience when you were making the works in China and in China, because from. From making woods that looks like fine objects to these very dedicated porcelain, which you use broken porcelain to make the work, it is very different. And also, that was the first time I really saw colors and all the blue colors. And what is the feeling of being in. In a porcelain workshop, seeing how and how they make porcelain to incorporate into your work?

Leonardo Drew: You know, that situation was very liberating. I mean, we’re talking, you know, China being one of the cradles of civilization and Ngujian being ground zero for porcelain. Finding myself there was just. My God, it was just, you know, I’m going back, right? I’m going back. I’m returning. But four years. Back and forth. It was four years.

Pearl Lam: But it’s very funny, because when I went and visit you, I walked through the tile, and then you were friends with all the street, the street hawkers that you were all making, and then you commissioned them to make handbags, and you were saying hello to everyone, and then when we lost you, we just need to say, oh, where’s the black man? Oh, he’s there. He’s in the Korean. Korean. I mean, canteen place. Go there to find him.

Leonardo Drew: You know, that’s amazing. Well, you know, that is one of the blessings, let’s put it that way. I’m always good with people, and language is not a barrier.

Pearl Lam: I think you’re the only black man in Jing, that’s all.

Leonardo Drew: It was a special situation. And you know, that. That when I was making those smashed pieces, that they were throwing them out initially, dragon and their whole crew, because they thought that, you know, it was garbage. And I have to explain to them that, no, no, this is actually artwork. This is not garbage.

Pearl Lam: Before you went to China, you’ve never been to. You’ve never been to Hong Kong or China, right?

Leonardo Drew: Japan, yes, Japan.

Pearl Lam: Only Japan. But Japan is not as raw as.

Leonardo Drew: Jingdezen, I can say. That’s the truth. I saw some things in China that I don’t think we even say on tape, but it is pretty incredible. Hong Kong is not mainland China.

Pearl Lam: Hong Kong is not. Definitely not with the US China conflict, huge conflict in the art world today. Do you feel that you are discouraged to work in China or to do things in China? What is the perception of artists? We have galleries who has refused to even join Hong Kong art Basel, because. Because in Hong Kong, in 219, there was this protest, and then there, and then some of the american galleries were saying to me, wow, there’s no human rights in Hong Kong and all that, which is not true, but that was a general, I mean, perception. So you don’t have that at all, or do you? What would you.

Leonardo Drew: Zero, zero, zero. I mean, I think that, you know, making these connections on other levels, you know, the politics of us, it’s always problematic. When I say us, I mean collective. The collective us. It’s problematic. If you care to. I mean, you can sort of just pick at just about anything and find, you know, in terms of this politics, that you will be on the opposite side of that. I have zero interest in that. I need to sort of, like, put myself around other creative folks and actually have a fair trade off, a true trade off. And that’s what I experienced when I was there, and I’m sure I’ll experience that very same thing when I go back there.

Pearl Lam: But don’t you think that contemporary art, a lot of contemporary art is about politics?

Leonardo Drew: Yeah, but that’s okay. I mean, I think that there’s a lot of powerful art being made because of these voices that need to be heard. I’m sure that my work, because I number the works, and it allows the viewer to sort of, like, find the politics of what I’m creating. But the fact is the works are mirrored, so you should be allowed to have your full on experience without me getting in the way and telling you what you should be seeing or what your, you know, what my politics are. It’s not that.

Pearl Lam: So and so if anyone asks you about the series that you are working in and in China, what is your intention? What is the concept behind it? What do we say?

Leonardo Drew: Well, I’m just telling. Stand in front of it. Stand in front of it. It’s a mirror. Find yourself. It’s very simple. It’s not complicated. And these black holes anywhere would draw you in, you know what I mean? So then you will have to deal with it, you know? But, you know, if you go around looking for the placard with my, you know, description of what you should be seeing, you’re not gonna find it. You’ll see a number, you know. Good luck.

Pearl Lam: Let’s talk also about your explosion work. Okay. Because after China, you came back, and there was this huge, huge installation in Basel. And then it’s amazing. You took over the whole space, and all the works is exploded like these, exploded out, but with all these beautiful colors dripping down. And I thought, wow. Wow, that’s new Leonardo. Not black, brown. There’s colors now. You just said that. Now colors becomes. Has become your vocabulary. So have you been feeling very comfortable? Have you? I mean, you need to live with colors, right

Leonardo Drew: I think it’s an effect.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, yeah, yeah. How could you believe that you could live without colors for all those decades?

Leonardo Drew: Interesting question. But it was what was naturally coming out of me. Keep in mind that I started as a painter, and I do have an understanding of color. It’s just that even I tied my hands, it was like, okay, remember, no more painting. No more drawing. With painting comes color. Yeah. The very first things that I did, once I made that decision that I was not going to be doing what I was comfortable doing, I started doing just black shapes, you know, cut out black shapes, you know, no color, because that was not allowed. And in the end, you know, that continued to premiere all the works thereafter. So dark became, you know, the hue, you know, or monochromatic.

Pearl Lam: Yeah. Because a lot of works at that time was also wooden works.

Leonardo Drew: That’s right.

Pearl Lam: Woodworks. Dark woodworks.

Leonardo Drew: Keep in mind that, yeah, there are certain periods. There’s cast paper, there’s cotton, there’s plenty of the wood. Wood is actually been around the longest, but I’ve been continuing sort of like, transforming into different iterations. But in the end, there have been the rust works. If you go through my catalog, you’ll realize that, yeah, there’s a number of, you know.

Pearl Lam: So. So what should we expect? Because you’re doing several shows, right? This year, Shanghai. You’re opening the show in November. So before that, you just told me you’re doing a show in Paris.

Leonardo Drew: That’s right. In May 16.

Pearl Lam: In May 16. And then September, you’re doing New York. So are these shows going to be showing different pieces, different series of.

Leonardo Drew: Yeah, I mean, like, I have shifting moods. So I think that, yeah, you know, I think that I’m attempting to sort of introduce the next, you know, trying to get to the next plateau. So I think that you test yourself, you ask questions, and then you sort of, like, because I’m an artist, I have to actually, you know, my answers to those questions have to be material. So if we were to get into, like, the artist’s mind in terms of what the philosophy of why you make things always, I think, for each artist, I mean, once you find your voice, you do have a handle on your materiality, your trajectory, who you are in this picture. When it comes to why I only number the works and not title the works, the idea really behind that is that the viewer should be complicit in finishing the work. They should be allowed to have their full on experience without me telling them how and what they should be seeing. So if they’re standing in front of the work and they have the evidence, that’s sort of like, you know, oh, you know, I wonder what this is about. And they go looking for the placard that says, you know, okay, this is how you should see this work, and I’m gonna explain it to you. I am not gonna give that to you.

Pearl Lam: No, you have to feel it, right?

Leonardo Drew: You have to feel it. And if the art operates as a mirror, then you will find yourself in it. You know, you don’t necessarily have to. You don’t go through me in order to find yourself. So I’m just holding up a mirror. That’s what the works are. It’s just that simple. It’s not over complicated. It’s not, you know, like, the politics of me or me trying to sort of, like, hold, you know, like the idea that I’m a be all or know all. No, actually, I need you in order to finish this. You know, you are complicit in realizing it, right.

Pearl Lam: And go on and talk. I mean, numbers. What? Number one.

Leonardo Drew: That’s a way of just cataloging.

Pearl Lam: So does it mean that if it is 310 to it is the 302nd world.

Leonardo Drew: That’s right. Yeah. So, I mean, you can pretty much tell where I am historically based on the numbers. If I started with number eight and I’m on, like, what am I, 300 and something, whatever. I mean, and they’re offshoot numbers. Like, for instance, your works are labeled c for China. There’s the gallery in Texas. That’s t for Texas. You know, New York is the only one that’s actually single. And that is the true, sort of, like, you know?

Pearl Lam: Right.

Leonardo Drew: You know, like. But they’re the all shoot numbers are just as important, you know, but they are. It’s necessary to sort of know.

Pearl Lam: Hold on. I didn’t realize that even in Texas, you start a workshop there now. Well, Texas, Antonio, I thought you were just going there to relax. Relax?

Leonardo Drew: What do you mean, relax? Relax? Is that what is a new you?

Pearl Lam: Right? A new YouTube and so is insane.

Leonardo Drew: That is something that’s not really gonna be happening. As a matter of fact, I’m on my way to get knee replacements and actually get my hands worked on, because from all of this beating comes the payment, which is. Yeah, you’re gonna have arthritis. You’re gonna have knee replacements. Yeah, it’s time.

Pearl Lam: It’s time.

Leonardo Drew: I’m a little early, but the fact is, if I’m doing 24/7 almost, you know, like, well, my hours, I’ve cut back on some. You know, it’s no longer, like 18 hours, days, you know, but what

Pearl Lam: Work for you is enjoyment, which is.

Leonardo Drew: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s what I know.

Pearl Lam: Okay, another. Another topic that would like you to address is nature. Your connection with nature.

Leonardo Drew: Let me go back to the nature of nature. All right. So if you are of the mind to sort of, like, line yourself up with nature, things natural, meaning, like, just, you know, have a reverence for how things are made. If I say that I’m going to become the weather, in order to sort of realize my work, the aging processes that we all sort of, you know, go through, materials go through it. We go through it also. We age. So this idea of decay, absolute signature, has been my voice probably since. Number eight. Number eight being made up of, guess what? Decayed animal parts entangled in rope. I mean, in effect, it’s a sculpted Jackson pollen. As you sort of move forward, you got to know that once you find your voice, no matter what material you use, in the end, it’s going to become you. Once you find your voice, that’s it. So my transitions from one material to the other from rust to cotton to cast paper to wood, there was a moment where I wanted to challenge that, and I said, what if I just took just white paper and created, you know, like, works from just that? No. You know, you know, this is, you know, going back to that very same reasoning, like, when I decided, like, to tie my hands when I was, you know, like, you know, using my facility. So it was like, okay, now you’ve gotten to a comfortable, you know, you know, you know, a situation again, and you need to challenge that. If rust is your strengthen, strip that away. You know, if black is your strength, strip that away and just work with white. Let’s see what happens. For three years, I just work with just cast paper. And, like, in the end, once the. The actual works were realized, guess what? Still had the same emotional gravitas, the same weight, the same monster, you know, was being created. And there’s a reason for that, because once you find your voice, you know, it doesn’t matter what material you’re working with. You know, you will find yourself.

Pearl Lam: You know, I hope they. I hope the listener who has, who’s listening to Spotify and Apple would be.

Leonardo Drew: Googling your artworks if they’re interested. They should. You know, I mean, like, Google does a whole lot better than a website because I can’t even keep up with.

Pearl Lam: That because what Leonardo is saying is like a philosopher, just look at the work and it reflect yourself. This is a mirror of yourself because you have a dialogue with the work and you understand yourself.

Leonardo Drew: There you go. That is correct. You hit it, honey.

Pearl Lam: You just mentioned in 1988, the art critics give you a hard time by really demolishing you and telling you, I mean, not understanding your work was trying to bar you from entering the art world. Can you tell me what. What actually. What are they actually, what were they saying? Yeah. What did he say?

Leonardo Drew: Well, you know, obviously the questions, I mean, whether or not that material that I was using, it was not. It was nontraditional material. Not using paint, not using, you know, you know, sculpt. Sculpt clay for sculpting or anything that was sort of like traditional, traditional material. But now I was, like, forerunner to a lot of the artists who are using this material now. So they’re interesting that they chose that as a way of sort of like, not allowing me to be a part of the canon. And at this moment, you can’t swing a dead cat without seeing an artist using non traditional materials. So it wasn’t something that I felt was of any sort of substance, meaning I needed to make. And as an artist, it’s like whether or not you’re breaking boundaries, really. That’s kind of like the point if you’re a fine artist, that you actually should be asking questions and adding to the overarching language. So you should be a part of the push forward.

Pearl Lam: Of course. Of course. And how about today, currently, are there any art critics to, I mean, good or bad? What is.

Leonardo Drew: I mean, good, bad? I mean, keep in mind that if I say that there’s no real truth to, like, what you’re seeing, because it’s what your interpretation is, actually your truth. So you allow the viewer and critic to write to say whatever they need to say. They are on their journey. You’re on your journey. Two different trajectories. And a lot of times they do meet. People are very, obviously, I’ve been around for eons now. So they’re the reverence and respect for someone who’s like a cockroach and doesn’t disappear. So really at the end, they sort of bend to, you know, like my philosophy now, but before they were saying, oh, he’s using found objects. Lazy, because I don’t use found objects. You know, they were just assuming that that’s because it echoed something, found that it was a found object, but actually store bought materials have been transformed, you know, because I weather these things, I become the weather in order to sort of make things, you know? And I think that from there, if we’re going to talk about the. The environmental aspects of my work. No, they’re lies.

Pearl Lam: Hold on. First, I need to ask, were there any misinterpretation about your works? Does people think differently? I mean.

Leonardo Drew: There is no misinterpretation.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, because it’s about yourself.

Leonardo Drew: That’s right. Exactly.

Pearl Lam: About yourself. Do you care about sustainability and environment? Sometimes?

Leonardo Drew: You know, I mean, listen, an awareness of how things are actually created naturally, you know, if you line yourself up with that in the end, any end, you will find that you, you know, you will start to garner, you know, like, attention from folks who you don’t have an understanding of or in reverence for nature, how things are, you know, you know, like, you know, there’s a. There’s a natural order. We challenge that. But really we put ourselves in jeopardy, super jeopardy, by challenging that, because we actually place ourselves in a position where we are superior to. And this is exactly what environmentalists are. You know, I’m not hugging trees, but I am definitely lining myself up with the idea that there’s a much, much larger force at work here. If you think cosmically you will start to understand that you need to sort of pull yourself just far enough back so you can actually see what and who we are and how we affect things around us.

Pearl Lam: But isn’t this a very western philosophy? You conquer, you destroy, and then you say you protect, you protect. This is a really western philosophy. Whereas while Chinese Taoism, why I’m Chinese, I mean, you protect, you live as equal nature and persons, you live together and you respect the environment, you respect the nature, and you don’t conquer. And then you say, I protect.

Leonardo Drew: Well, this is my reverence for, you know, like Eastern philosophy, you know, so you know, how, and how, you know, I make my way through this life and I’m not just talking how I make and create, but actually how I live my life. It has been, you know, one that, you know, attempts to, to have synergy.

Pearl Lam: Yes

Leonardo Drew: With those things.

Pearl Lam: Natural harmony.

Leonardo Drew: Yeah, harmony, absolutely. Yeah. So there’s a balance, you know, at some point we’ll be returned back. Yeah, no, but it’s very dullest. Yeah, but it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s simplistic. It actually removes the, it the ego from the equation and allows you to see, have clarity. And I think through all this, if there was a blessing in all of this, it’s not the fact that I can actually make things, but it’s the clarity that’s clarity is actually the blessing.

Pearl Lam: So now as an African American black artist, now divers, you know, diversified, has been such a big thing for the last ten years. Now, of course, we just talk about the younger black artists and how lucky they are. You said that they are. I mean, do you say about their. It’s like the golden age. So do you see that your career, because of this environment will be, I mean, people will pay more attention?

Leonardo Drew: Well, that’s neither here nor there. I mean, the public’s perception is fickle, you know, so they are going to sort of like, you know, love you today and hate you tomorrow. So you don’t really want to invest in that kind of nonsense. You need to sort of like, understand what your journey is and how you sort of like, have to navigate your time on this planet, which is short. It’s really relatively short. And if you can have fair trade offs with others, you know, it just, you know, adds to, you know, the level of the experience.

Pearl Lam: Leonardo. So if there is any young black artist now coming and wanting to be an artist, what sort of tips will you give them and how should they start?

Leonardo Drew: Well, I mean, I might be the worst person to actually answer that question. But when it comes to, you know, having a, you know, for a young artist having an understanding of like why you are making things, your need to make things, it has to be addressed. I have definitely had young artists who have approached me and said things like, well, you know, I would be making more work if I had an exhibition already. You know, that that’s this person that’s already on the wrong path. A more serious way of navigating this art life is not buy into the idea that you should be rewarded for what you create. Just make what you do, do what you make things, make, create, you know, and if success comes, great. If it doesn’t, if you bow out because of that, what does that mean? You are not an artist. You know what I mean? So just like, you know, you have to from here, you know, just if you have the hunger, if you’re, you know, you have to be hungry, then you, then, you know, like it becomes like a simple way of living. You definitely will glean the most out of your life if you commit to this thing that you, if you put on this earth to make, then you should be making, you know.

Pearl Lam: Thank you, Leonardo. What a nice tip for the… you know, really, I think it’s great that you have encouraged artists to feel and they have to be hungry. I mean, even if you are the most talented artist, if you are not hungry, you will never get it. You will never

Leonardo Drew: Well, you have to, have to, need to make.

Pearl Lam: Thank you so much, Leo.

Leonardo Drew: Love you. My pleasure, my pleasure. One of my favorite people on the planet.