Rebecca Jones: Hello and welcome to the first episode of The Pearl Lam Podcast, in which Pearl Lam will be talking to some of the world’s brightest talents and emerging voices to inspire you. And who knows, perhaps even to disrupt your way of thinking. I’m Rebecca Jones, I was the BBC’s Arts correspondent for more than 20 years, and in this, the first episode, I’m going to be chatting to Pearl Lam about some of the subjects that she wants to explore and also her own remarkable story. So, Pearl Lam, welcome to your own podcast. I want to start by asking you a bit more about you, finding out a bit more about you. Who is Pearl Lam?

Pearl Lam (林明珠): It’s very hard to even describe myself because, you know, we are always ever changing, and we have so many layers. So, I think, you know, the general perception from people is that I’m a gallerist, I’m a successful gallerist. I promote Chinese Contemporary Art. And I’m a very strong promoter about it. And I mean within the art scene, they know that I’m the first one who launched the Chinese abstract. When we were told I remember one of the very senior curators, who first introduced the Chinese contemporary to America, coming up and saying… when I there it was in early 2000… she said to me, whenever I mention about abstract Chinese art, all the Western academics or Western curators are telling me that we are copying, following the West! We’re copying the West he said. He said, “I’m too tired, I can’t fight anymore”. Why did you take up the job and why don’t you go and tell them that we are very different? All our Chinese abstract is actually rooted from Chinese calligraphy based on our Chinese culture, Confucianism, Buddhism and Daoism. So, he created a show for me in the gallery and then I opened the Hong Kong Gallery in 2012 I believe, or 2011. And instead of a solo artist show, we opened a Chinese abstract show and from then on, with every Gallery, we were doing Chinese abstract.

Rebecca Jones: So, you were a disruptor?

Pearl Lam (林明珠): Of course, I’m a disrupter, but I disrupt things because I think that

I need to. Because I believe in certain conviction. I think that there is too much of the world pushing for Western domination. Before we had a colonialism of the country and now, we have a colonialism of a culture.

Rebecca Jones: I know that you’re from a wealthy family and I wanted to ask you, were there parental expectations about the kind of career that you would pursue?

Pearl Lam (林明珠): My parent’s generation, of course they want you to either participate in family business or to be a professional lawyer, doctor, accountant etc…

Rebecca Jones: What did they want for you?

Pearl Lam: I studied accountancy and financial management because I was stopped from pursuing outdoor architecture. By then, my family had not become a property developer yet. So, our family business at the time was government manufacturing and selling quarters and textile manufacturing. So then eventually they became property developers. So, one of the things that I was told was that you can’t study accurate seven years you’re trying running away and then he said you know being an architecture. “Seven years, you’re trying to run away!” And then he said, “being an architect, you have to grovel to a developer. I couldn’t see you grovelling to anybody”. That’s my father. And then he said ah, no way. I said, what am I going to explain to my friends? So anyway, he said if I don’t return to Hong Kong, he was going to cut off all my expenses.

Rebecca Jones: Because you’d gone to China to try out a career as a property developer?

Pearl Lam: what I did is, when I saw my father in 1992 to negotiate my return, I wanted to open the gallery not that I know how a Gallery operated. In my mind was that I wanted to open something, I wanted to do something that he had no control over. So, I thought doing art would be fantastic because there’s no control. So, I went back, and I wore my torn tights, black lipstick and I was very Punky. I went and saw him he was shocked. He said: “I’m completely shocked, so what is this, where’s my daughter? And he said come back to the to the family to be an accountant or lawyer. I said, no I’m going to open a gallery. He said, “give me give me your credit cards” and he cut me off. He said “you cannot be a gallerist. I didn’t send you away for over 10 years to return to become a shopkeeper. I said you don’t even understand what a gallery means. Anyway, the following day he called me up and he said I’m giving you a good opportunity for your life. He said you go to Shanghai, and you learn to be a property developer. He said there’s a piece of land there. I said I couldn’t even speak Mandarin; how could I go? he said you can learn. He said today with how you look; no one will even employ you as a receptionist. He said I have negotiated a very good deal, fantastic deal, very high salary and, I have paid for your travel expenses. That was my deal.

Rebecca Jones: You forged your own path, ultimately against your family’s wishes, but where did this this love, this passion, for contemporary art come from?

Pearl Lam: From a young age, I learned painting and because they didn’t realize I had ADHD, I was taught how to focus. So, I was taught to do Chinese calligraphy since I was four years old and then, gradually I started doing Chinese paintings. So already I knew that I could paint. In one of my levels, I didn’t even go to any Studio works but I passed my studio because I used to I transfer Chinese painting into watercolour so I have that love for it. I have that passion.

Rebecca Jones: Did you want to be an artist at any point?

Pearl Lam: When I wanted to become an artist, it was just an escape from the control from my father. I didn’t know what I wanted to be. But I’m very creative as well and I’m very good at designing as well so I knew that I had that. But I didn’t know what to do with it. So then when I had my extra pocket money in my university days, sometimes I will go to graduate show and sometimes I would buy things. I would collect things, buy things. When it came to redecorating of my flat because all Chinese parents, when they send children abroad, they would try to buy them something for their apartment. So, when I started decorating, I started meeting the designers. So, at the time in 1991 when the economy was bad, I thought wow. Why don’t I bring them to show in Hong Kong. So that was in my mind. And then when I went back to Hong Kong, the only thing I knew is I need to find something that I will be out of the control from my family. So, I thought art was really the thing I wanted to do. And then based on the negotiation with my father, I could do pop-up shows but he didn’t understand what pop-up shows means. So, the first pop-up shows I did I felt that I was alive. I felt that all my life I had been a living zombie and then when I was doing the show, preparing the show, I thought I was alive and then I realized that this is what I want.

Rebecca Jones: and you set up your first physical Gallery in Shanghai in 2005. And you wanted from the outset to Showcase a diverse range of artists from different backgrounds?

Pearl Lam: Yeah, not the one that was always in the western world.

Rebecca Jones: And so, how unusual was that back in 2005?

Pearl Lam: Oh, there’s nowhere I’ve seen it. it was really very different. I was showing artists that I think the Chinese art will recognize but the outside of that that world they don’t know them, and it was exciting. And then I remember I had the Asian Society Museum director Melissa Chung, who’s now in her shop, came in and said to me why don’t you change it as a foundation, at least we can work with you, and it’s a choice because I’m not seriously selling. I was just showing the work, but I didn’t want to change into Foundation because there’s too much restriction. So, I have to tick in, and I have to be serious. And that was 2007, six and seven. After I must be serious to know which direction I’m going in in terms of Contemporary Art.

Rebecca Jones: And you’ve also broadened the possibilities, haven’t you? I mean you deal with digital art, for example you’ve sold Mr doodle. Why is it important do you think that Contemporary Art continues to push the boundaries?

Pearl Lam: Because some people find it quite difficult to relate to. We talk about Contemporary Art, so it’s contemporary culture. So how can we rebel against a contemporary culture? We must be in sync of what the world is moving to. When I first started with these MFT what I knew about MFT? so I must employ younger people and a completely different way of approaching it. I mean it’s not that I would really want to make money out of MFT but at least you must be understanding the MFD. You know as a contemporary Art Gallery and when you want to counterfeit the younger generation, we must speak the same language. If we can’t we are going to lose them. And we want them, we want to improve, we want to cultivate them so that they would appreciate how these older generation of artists are as well.

Rebecca Jones: But with artists able to deal directly with the public through social media, does that place physical galleries like yours in Jeopardy? Do we need them?

Pearl Lam: No, depending on what sort of artists we are talking about. I mean there’s still many artists who’s not so familiar with the social media. The younger ones, the popular artists like Mr doodle, of course he is nearly three million followers. But we work very well together, and he was really the first artist that I have who is so popular.

I mean it’s a completely new experience for us because we have all these brand labels asking for collaborations. We’ve never had it before, so for us it’s learning process as well.

Rebecca Jones: In terms of that learning process, how do you see the future of Pearl Lam galleries?

Pearl Lam: I think we are moving. I mean sometimes I must question what is the Gallery, what the gallery function is going to be? I think with the technology growing we always must find our own place, but we know exactly a gallery can offer an artist or offer the art world. So, I think as time changes as technology changes we will always find our new way. I mean a new way of how to support artists. We going to are we going to be completely becoming a dealer, just doing a commercial thing. Or are we going to support an artist the way that we support the artist of getting them into a museum. I think the museum also has to change as well because so far all the all the top names Museums, they’re rejecting all these popular artists because academically, they are not the same as the academic artists, but the younger generation are rejecting all these academic artists because they don’t want to read. They don’t want to read so much, and so are we going to stop all these contemporary artists, all these popular artists stopping them from going to the top museums? How are the Museum’s people looking at it? So, all these are going to change and we are going to be forced to change whether we like it or not.

Rebecca Jones: Well, I know, as well as your galleries, you launched a charity the China Art Foundation, which you had to close during the pandemic. But just tell me a little bit about what you saw its purpose as and would you like to reopen it?

Pearl Lam: Well, I would tell you why I opened it. For many years I could not understand Chinese Contemporary Art especially the history and the evolution. I always thought that there was a missing link because when you read some curators in and in the West writing catalogues and when you talk to the artist it’s completely two different stories. I never could understand why there was a missing link. One day I was going to read an online essay in simplified Chinese. Normally people take less than an hour to finish it. It took me seven days because my Chinese level is very low and after I read it, all the dots connected and I said: okay I must meet this professor, I must meet this Professor who created the first contemporary art show in the National Gallery in Beijing in 1989. And after that he was house arrested because of the tenement and then later he got a Harvard scholarship for his PHD. So, he went to Harvard and then in 1998 he created a show called Inside Out for the Asia Society Museum and that was the first time he introduced Chinese contemporary to America. So, I said I want to meet him. He said sorry he’s in Pittsburgh. So, I said can you get an appointment for him, so I flew to Pittsburgh. I went to see him, sat down with him and then he said I don’t know why you want to see me I don’t curate for art galleries. I said I don’t have a gallery I just do pop-up shows, at the time we were talking about 2004 2005. So, I said I just want to ask you questions and can you answer me so we spoke for two hours and he keep on saying that he was not curating so I’m not doing that. I said don’t worry I’m not asking you; I just want to have answers because I need someone to sort me out because there’s so many things I couldn’t understand. So, after that I went to London and I caught Phillip’s daughter and I said you know what, now I have the Missing Link. What if I have such a huge misunderstanding. What should I do to make people understand what the Chinese contemporary art culture is about? So, he said set up a foundation. One of the ideas behind the foundation was to act as a bridge between the West and the East. So that he West have a clearer understanding of Chinese culture now. The Chinese art does not necessarily just mean Contemporary Art because Chinese art in my terms it cannot be like the West. It’s not about modernism it is about evolving from a Chinese traditions and Chinese philosophy and how they react with the Western ideas to create this new dynamic social language. I suppose we live in in a time of heightened geopolitical tension. Can Contemporary Art really break down barriers? Can it bring people together? I really see art as soft power I really see that if you look at the contour, if you understand, if you spend some time to understand a piece of artwork and the artists intention and the artist biography, it makes you understand Chinese culture better. It will soften that intimidation because the world felt intimidated by China and China has completely misread about the West. So I mean there has to be some soft power that comes in and makes people more relaxed about it.

Rebecca Jones: And do you think the work of the foundation did that? Do you feel you achieved what you said?

Pearl Lam: Yes, we did, but we did try and make people understand and it’s great because the Western curators, they’re open-minded. So that’s the first step. If you are open-minded to at least listen, that’s the first step.

Rebecca Jones: is it your view then, that the history of art especially in Asia has been massively overlooked?

Pearl Lam: Absolutely. Why do you think that there are not enough books, not enough writings, not enough writings in English to communicate and not enough communication? And in the West, they have this arrogant attitude. They will tell us what is good and what is bad without understanding who we are and what we are. Without thinking about our understanding or the history of our Traditions. I remember I’ve talked to different curators. And they said why? This is Contemporary Art. When we look at it, it should communicate with you, and I said yeah look at the Contemporary Art today we have to read an essay before we can look at the art. I mean I think you really need to really learn about it to learn about our roots.

Rebecca Jones: You have achieved so much what are you most proud of?

Pearl Lam: I’ve got a long way to go. I’m very proud of one thing; I make friends with all different nationalities with different cultures. I am very happy that they can share their different cultures with me because when I go to Lagos, people are so friendly. They open doors and I have built so many friendships.

Rebecca Jones: And are you going to Nigeria because you want to I want to learn about an African artists?

Pearl Lam: I want to learn about African art, and I only had those two weeks when I was free, so I took five days to go there. During my university days I did know a lot of Nigerians, but I lost contact with a lot of them so then I picked it up. I meet new people and it’s great because it taught me a completely a different way of art and of looking at things. What is great is I have had a no judgement attitude since I was young. This trip really strengthened my no judgment policy.

Rebecca Jones: I’m interested you talk about the young. There may be people listening to this or watching this who think “I want to be like Pearl Lam”. How do I set up a gallery? How do I do some of the things that you’ve done? What’s your advice?

Pearl Lam: Visit galleries. Make friends. Start having thing and art and make an art community, and then if you want to do a gallery, do it.

Rebecca Jones: What happens, though if you don’t have connections and you don’t perhaps come from a privileged background? Where are the opportunities?

Pearl Lam: Work in a gallery. work hard and meet artists, build relationships. The art world, like any other business world, is all about relationships.

Rebecca Jones: You’ve touched on some of the obstacles that you’ve had to overcome, but I wonder did you have a mentor? Did you have anybody who gave you good advice?

Pearl Lam: No. You know, in Hong Kong there’s nothing. There was one very good Gallery, HANA Gallery. Johnson Chen was the first to sell Chinese contemporary since 80s. But no, I didn’t ask for help I wanted to find my own way, maybe that was too arrogant as well. So, I will always ask any young people to find someone to talk to them if they have experience. You don’t need to make mistakes. I’ve made tons of mistakes because I refuse to ask anyone. I just want to find my own way.

Rebecca Jones: So, we talked, Pearl about you being a disrupter. Another label you’ve also been called is a Rebel with a cause. What about Feminism. Would you describe yourself as a feminist?

Pearl Lam: No. I don’t even think about feminism. I was brought up in in Hong Kong, we don’t have feminism. We always feel that men and women are all equal. Sometimes a woman is even having a better opportunity than a man, so I don’t have this urge to strike as a feminist at all.

Rebecca Jones: Nonetheless, many people might think that you have made your way in a man’s world, and I wonder how you’ve done that?

Pearl Lam: I never thought that there was a male or female world and whatever I do is by default. I don’t even think that a woman has is a very disadvantaged position in Hong Kong or in Shanghai. It is even more strange because in Shanghai it is a woman’s world. If a woman and a man they go out and work, when they return home it is the man who cooks, looks after the children and the man is to worship the woman. It is always the woman who leads in Shanghai. My mother is from Shanghai. In Hong Kong we never have this problem.

Rebecca Jones: Interesting. I mean it is interesting because certainly from a Western perspective, I would say that is not the case.

Pearl Lam: No because the rest of China is very different. Shanghai is very different. Hong Kong is very different. I even asked my younger staff in my gallery; no one felt there is a need for Feminism or felt like they were being discriminated against. because they are women.

Rebecca Jones: But have you never felt, I could be a really good role model for other women especially younger women.

Pearl Lam: No, I never thought about it. The only thing is I try to encourage boys and girls to tell their parents that they must let them to be themselves because to be we is even more difficult than anything. Because all our parents have certain expectations and then you know in the West, we always ask for Role Models. But can’t we be ourselves to understand ourselves. It’s ten times tougher than anything.

Rebecca Jones: From the outside, you’re living this extraordinary life. You’re in

Nigeria one week, you’re here in London, then you’re off to New York. There will be people watching and listening to this thinking your life is so glamorous, so fantastic. I mean are you living your best life?

Pearl Lam: I mean, I like my life, but it doesn’t mean that it is for everyone. I mean I just met last night my old staff who’s complaining that she’s been traveling in and out of London and has never stayed in London for more than seven days. So, she hated it. So, it’s just that I can sleep, I don’t have jet lag, I love long-haul flights and I love meeting different people. Knowledge for me is very exciting. Meeting people and talking to others is very exciting. It’s excruciating exciting.

Rebecca Jones: I wondered how important it is for you to express yourself through the way you dress in your image.

Pearl Lam: The way I dress is very funny because I’m from Hong Kong, I have a Shanghai mother. My Shanghai mother is very important in dressing fashion so from young I’m trained like this. And my father is a foodie, so I have both. I need food. I’m really a foodie and I love fashion so it’s a way of my life. It’s an image, this is how I am, this is what I am. and I love clothes I love fashion and I love to discover different designers.

Rebecca Jones: it’s so interesting talking to you because on the one hand you’ve totally rebelled against your family and their expectations and yet on the other hand you are so shaped by the way you were brought up.

Pearl Lam: Frivolity is my middle name [Laughter] but you know what I mean, you know you see your mother, I rebel against what they control but there are things that I follow.

Rebecca Jones: I know you said your father passed away in 2005 but were he here do you think he would be proud of what you’ve achieved?

Pearl Lam: I think now, yes. Especially because the art world has become so important in every sense, and he will recognize that importance and then he will realize that I’m in it. So, it’s completely a different view from 2000 you know in early 2000s and before.

Rebecca Jones: And I suppose my final question to you is I can see by talking to you you’re very forward thinking but if I was to ask you to reflect on what you’ve achieved do you think you shifted the dial on the way that Chinese art in particular is viewed? Contemporary art- do you think you’ve made a difference?

Pearl Lam: I don’t know whether I have made a difference, but I have made people be more aware of what Chinese Contemporary Art really is. Because now I’ve been talking to different people, they all recognize that that the propaganda political pop is not the Chinese definition of Chinese contemporary art. That has evolved. I also believe that people have looked at the Chinese art in very different ways. But as have I said you know, as I told many people, art is art. We’re not about passports. It’s about people willing to go deeper inside to understand the culture.