Pearl Lam: Welcome to the Pearl Lam Podcast. Today I am sitting at sketch, the place I’ve been visiting for over 20 years. I’m sitting here with the legendary Mourad, who founded Sketch 20 odd years ago. So Mourad, please brief people telling them about your history.

Mourad Mazouz: I’m going to do it very quickly. Born in Algeria just after their independence in 1962, came in France in 1977 by myself.

Pearl Lam: By yourself?

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah, and well, I did a lot of little jobs, you know, my first job was cleaner in offices and selling jeans in markets and many things. So I learned a lot in Europe, you know, the first few years, at 20, I left traveling, don’t ask me why. One day I decided with no money, and I traveled for almost five and a half years around Asia, especially around America, Asia, work on the crew member on sailing boats in Caribbean, in southeast Asia, et cetera, et cetera. And when I was 26, I’ve been kicked out of America, they catch me without paper, so they kicked me out. I arrived, I was in France, I was 26, I didn’t know what to do. I decided to open a restaurant, because my idea was to sell it very quickly, make a bit of profit and continue traveling, you know, because at the time I was coming back to America to work, to make a bit of money, to be able to travel a bit more. So. And actually, I love travelling, I love, I still, I just come back from Trinidad, actually for the carnival just now. But anyway, so when I came back in France, I lied to 20 friends of mine. I told them that I had 150,000 francs and I did it 50, I had zero. Four of them lend me 50 because they thought that was missing, you know. And with 2200 thousand francs at the time, I opened my first little restaurant, bistro in a little area, and for six months it was empty. And slowly, slowly by slowly.

Pearl Lam: What sort of food?

Mourad Mazouz: French food, Basque food, actually, the first one, called Bascou. And slowly by slowly, a year after I had 120 cover at night for a small little restaurant of 40 seats, food for lunch. I don’t know, it’s love. Love and wanted to please. And basically this dynamic made me stay in this business. That’s why.

Pearl Lam: When did you open 404?

Mourad Mazouz: Bascou was 88. 404 was 1990. Actually, just during Bascou, somebody showed me a place. So I opened 404.

Pearl Lam: I remember I go to 404. The upstairs, the little toilet.

Mourad Mazouz: Top of the toilet, we have a little room.

Pearl Lam: It was the first time I ever had Moroccan food.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah. Really? Yeah.

Pearl Lam: I’ve never been. I never even know what.

Mourad Mazouz: We’re still open. We’re still open all these years. And in the nineties, 93, 94, I met an english girl in Paris. We start dating. So I sold my restaurant Bascou to come to see her in London. And I said, but it’s not north African in London, so I will do one. So that’s why I did Momo. Momo 97.

Pearl Lam: But Momo was like the same concept of queue que son Kelt was amazing is you have food and loud music. It was just like very cool, the music. And then you attract a lot of people.

Mourad Mazouz: At 28 years old, opening his north african restaurant, you need to remember at the time in Paris, north African, he was a bit like how we can say that? A bit like servant, you know. And that was. Something was annoying me. So I decided to do a restaurant equal from, you know, from the rest of the restaurant, French restaurants. So that’s why you had music, fun and everything. And it was such a success. But you know, you don’t realize when you’re young, you just do things, you don’t care about anything and you don’t think actually that was the case. And I think I still don’t think too much and. Well, and it worked so well. So, 97, Momo 98, a friend of mine, the owner of. And that’s funny story, the owner of Bains Douches in Paris, the owner called Claude Charles.

Pearl Lam: And for people to know, Bains Douches is a very famous nightclub in Paris.

Mourad Mazouz: It was one of the nightclubs of the world. And Bains Douches was next to my restaurants and I knew everyone there. And the owner, Claude, in 98, came in London. He was in love with a woman in London. And he told me, oh, I’m going to open a club.

Pearl Lam: I was told when you came to London, you couldn’t speak a word of English.

Mourad Mazouz: That’s not true, because I was living in America, so I learned a bit of English. My English was very bad, that’s true.

Pearl Lam: But when you live in America, you cannot be so bad.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah, I know.

Pearl Lam: And you were working.

Mourad Mazouz: I lived one and a half year in America, only, you know, so. But that’s what I learned my English when arriving in America, I didn’t speak a word in English. And after a year and a half, I was able to say a few sentences still exchange because I was a waiter in the restaurant. That’s when I started. Actually, my first experience in restaurant is when I was traveling and when I was in America. And I worked in a restaurant, very nice restaurant in La called Maison. At the time, it was the restaurant with all the stars. I served Orson Wells on the table every day for lunch because the owner used to invite him. I used to. I mean, the room was full of guests, very famous guests every night, you know. And for me, young Algerian coming six years after being in America was like, I mean, heaven, another thing, you know, the American dream. Anyway, so come back to 98, Claude Charles in London. And he told me, oh, I’m looking a place for, you know, I’m looking for a place to do a club and everything. And that’s when I asked few people around, one of my clients, also of Momo, and they told me, oh, it’s this building next door, not far in Conduit Street. Can I show you it to you tomorrow? I said, why not? I came here. And that’s when I discovered the building here. But actually we signed. In French, we say, premiere de vent. I don’t know how we say in English, you know, the first paper you sign to say if you’re gonna take the place or not. And actually, memorandum, memorandum. Voila. For three months. But Claude Charles in the middle of that, say, actually, I’m not staying in London, I don’t like it. And he left.

Pearl Lam: Oh, the girlfriend and him, yeah, yeah.

Mourad Mazouz: He was not working with the girlfriend. So I had this paper with this building. Everybody wanted the building. I heard at the time, Gordon Ramsey, many restaurateurs, some art people, you know, galleries wanted the building. So, you know, I had this paper in front of me. So I signed the definitive things. I didn’t know what I’m gonna do with it. I didn’t know if I’m gonna able to have the money. I didn’t know. I didn’t know at all what I can do with this building. But I had the building, and that’s how sketch came out. And it took me four and a half years to do it. Long story.

Pearl Lam: And that’s because I remember when I met you, when we were doing that, it wasn’t open because at the time, you find a partner, a backer who’s in technology, a young guy who allows you to create your dreams.

Mourad Mazouz: Yes.

Pearl Lam: How do you sell to them?

Mourad Mazouz: You know, it’s not about selling. It’s about convincing.

Pearl Lam: Convincing.

Mourad Mazouz: But showing that you have energy.
And you’re ready to do anything to make it happen.

Pearl Lam: To make it happen.

Mourad Mazouz: And it’s exactly what’s happened. I don’t know. You know, actually, it’s a good question because, you know, you sell things in your own way.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, exactly.

Mourad Mazouz: You just talk about your dream, your passion, you, what you want to create and some people following you or not. Yes. I needed a backer because you can imagine at the time, I didn’t have a penny. I had Momo working. Well, I was winning my life, but I didn’t have enough money to build a place like sketch. So I had a backer who came along with me. And like you say, been still today the same person.

Pearl Lam: Same person.

Mourad Mazou: Why only one person? You know? And.

Pearl Lam: And so you’ve been partners for over 20 something years.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah. I’m a loyal, straight, honest person. That’s, for me, something very important. Look, my chef, Pierre Gagnaire, has been 22, 23 years. 24 now, almost. We’re working together. We didn’t have a word on the top of each other. So much love we have between us. So some worked with us for 22 years. So, you know, when you are straight, honest, and you work hand by hand with the people next to you, normally in Paris in 404, I was talking to my chef this morning. It’s been 29 years with me.

Pearl Lam: I remember there was a time it was burnt. It was a fire. And then we can never get back in. It was stopped for like, two, three years, right?

Mourad Mazouz: No, actually, ten months. It was closed for ten months. But I was very happy because the insurance paid me and I made a bit of money, actually. Sorry, that was maybe the best year of 404 is the year we were closed. Yes.

Pearl Lam: So, okay, so when you start here, I remember when I first visited here, and, you know, I was surprised because if all the background you have, how do you connect with artists, design and artists? Because here is wild, right? Every of the things is because I always believe that art, culture, food, they all have to tie together. But no one has the balls to do it. And even no one has the vision. You have the vision, you have the balls and you have a backer.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah. For me it’s quite simple, actually. It’s. And I’m still thinking like this. Live with your time. You like or you don’t like, you appreciate, you don’t appreciate, you touch or not touch by what’s going on around you doesn’t matter. You need to know about it because it’s part of your time. So art, music, food, it’s all, you know, when you live in big cities like Paris, London, whatever cities, you have all that around you. So you need to know after if you like or you don’t like or you appreciate or not. Doesn’t matter. It’s not the problem. You know, when I go to museum, I’m not judging every painting that I’m looking at, I’m just seeing them. I get out, something will stay in my mind or not. That’s after, you know, stay in my mind. And the number of time when I’m doing something and suddenly I think I’m creative, oh, look what I create. And actually, when I think about it, oh, ten years before, you know, it’s because I live that and, you know, made me arrive to by example, toilets. You know, everybody talks about those toilets in sketch.

Pearl Lam: Yeah the eggs. I mean, that is so innovative.

Mourad Mazouz: But actually, it was just one morning I wake up when we were doing sketch, we were supposed to be a lunge on the, on the, on the first floor and the toilet was of the place was supposed to be underneath. Suddenly one morning I wake up, I was sweating and I say, we cannot have another lounge. I have already three bars. How I’m gonna fill up those bars. So I freak out. So I decided that I’m gonna go, I’m gonna do the bar underneath and the toilets on the top and how to use this big room, because it was such a big room and great two star listed, so I was not able to put a roof or ceiling. So what I did, I did twelve eggs to use the space. But the bar downstairs, I realized many years after, is because in the eighties, when I was in New York, you had a club at the time where the toilets, you had DJ’s in the toilets. And that’s unconsciously, that’s maybe what made me this bar, you know, under the toilets. So basically everything has a link somewhere with what you leave in the daily basis. That’s why I’m saying to my children, to my friend, to my staff, to my friends around me just appreciate what you are around. Doesn’t matter what you think about it, just try to have some knowledge on it, you know? So I’m not a huge fan of art. I’m not a huge fan of design. I’m not a huge fan of food, but I work in food, so I need to know about it. Art is around me every day, so I need to know about it, like or not like. Same for design, same for music, you know.

Pearl Lam: Let’s talk about your egg. At the time when you think about doing an egg. Yeah. You talk to your architect, obviously.

Mourad Mazouz: No, no, no.

Pearl Lam: So how did they fabricate this egg?

Mourad Mazouz: Because I was a young. The architect that I took for sketch was really structural, mainly structure. Yeah. Design was. And plan and everything because we needed it.

Pearl Lam: Yeah.

Mourad Mazouz: But planning permission and planning permission and construction and everything. But the design himself was a young guy that I found at school called Noé Duchaufour Lawrance, a young designer who was just finishing his last year at school. And he did only a desk and I needed someone who had a computer who knows how to drawing because I didn’t know to do that in construction. So we stayed two together for four and a half years and we designed the place together and we added some friends, like Gabanoki for the lecture room. We added some friends who give us a hand where we were really quite weak, you know. So that’s how sketch been built, basically.

Pearl Lam: So it is everything is your vision?

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah. I mean, vision for me and few friends around and Noé and.

Pearl Lam: Because when you see, when you see, you know, I think you are the God of toilets. Okay. Why? Because you have your eggs downstairs and upstairs you have these crystals. Toilet. Yes, crystals, completely.

Mourad Mazouz
Two different concepts that we did with a friend of mine called Mebs. We stayed four months, these toilets upstairs to do all the crystal. And we were so, so lucky at the time because the crystal company. Swarovski. Swarovski, imagine my head, Swarovski give us all the crystals for free. She was a few buildings away from here and really kindly, generously give us to, because she was believing, she believed that we’re going to do something quite nice here. And it’s been 22 years, 23 years and it’s still on.

Pearl Lam: Still. It’s still very, you know, it’s never dated. It never dated, which is pretty amazing. Okay, so you picked the artist when it first opened.

Mourad Mazouz: So, so how the first, the first year, as you know. It was a bit bad because the main room in sketch had no windows. Yes, it had only domes, glass domes. But the glass dome needed to be covered for the sound, for the neighbors. So basically we didn’t have. So I wanted to create windows. How to create a window, window in the room when you don’t have it? Video.

Pearl Lam: Video, yeah, that’s what you. It was there for a long, long time. The video.

Mourad Mazouz: Ten years. Yeah, ten years. And we did a 360 degrees video at the time. The technology was not what it is today. So the video and the project themselves was huge cost fortune. We did it to have twelve, to make sure that we can link every video to each other, to make a real 360 degrees. And I, when you have a video, what do you show? Or you show stupid things like computer images or you ask why? I decided to ask some artist video, because I used to love art video. At the time it was something new. And for ten years we showed art video during the day, like a space for video art. And at night we had customers. So we need to be careful what we’re showing. But somewhere we put, I mean, I think I put the line quite far because we were showing only artists at night, during dinner, some nights or some exhibition was a bit on the edge. Some customers was complaining of the image they had during the dinner, because it was a bit sex and other things. Everything I know pushed a bit, you know, and. But I used to love it because for me was, you know, I was sharing a, my love of art video with my customers, you know. And so we did that for ten years. It was a bit, some exhibition was a bit rough to put in, you know. And the first year in the art business, nobody wanted to touch Restaurants doing art. What is these things on art video? What they don’t like, you know, collaboration. Collaboration. A bit pretentious, a bit this, a bit that. And so a friend of mine, Golnoosh Khadivi, helped me, came with me. And she was an architect. Architect. She was really, really, really knowledgeable in art, and especially in video art. And so basically she became my curator for the first year. And that’s how, because nobody wanted to do it. And basically that’s how we started. We started by young artist at video, and for, on ten years, I think, except maybe Bill Viola had almost every video artist of the time they were in sketch, I think. I don’t want to be pretentious. I think we showed more art video than Tate Modern.

Pearl Lam: I think so. I think so.

Mourad Mazouz: Because it was, we were really dedicated.

Pearl Lam: Because when, when it first opened, when you walked in it was the Yoga Bay.

Mourad Mazouz: Yes.

Pearl Lam: Silver just coming out and all those immediately. You really have avant garde.

Mourad Mazouz: It’s unbelievable. You remember because even me sometimes I forgot.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, you have the yoga, but you even have, have Indiana. You have to love that. Yes, right. Yes, right. You know, all these things you curate yourself or you have other people coming to help.

Mourad Mazouz: It’s me and few friends around. Like I told you, you know, it’s amazing.

Pearl Lam: It’s just amazing.

Mourad Mazouz: I still work with my close friends.

Pearl Lam: Because I love when you have the yoga. I said, who on earth in a restaurant will have that? And I remember when it first opened, we have this long conversation about british not understanding gaume food. And you were having a hard time because the food critics were such a, such critical and they have no understanding. And when I went in, I just love your food. I just love foodies. I love food. And I said, how come? How come? How come?

Mourad Mazouz: We were just discussing.

Pearl Lam: It was so new.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah. During the four years of building sketch, what kind of chef I’m gonna have, who’s gonna work with me? I don’t know. So I heard about Pierre Gagnaire many times. Three Michelin star, the first chef who’s been bankrupt, who reopened his little restaurant in Paris with his client. And that’s, we’re talking about 94, 95. So when I came to see him in 98, 99, I asked for a meeting with him. I came. I was so, in a way, jittic because I was asking him if one of his chefs can come to work with me. You know, I was really stupid. I came to see him to ask him if he had a chef for me, which was quite ridiculous. He made me come three times with his wife and to talk to me. So we spent 1 hour each time. And the third time he told me, why not me? And that’s when I get out of the restaurant in Paris and I say, but I’m not at the level. I’m from a bistro background, you know, I don’t have enough knowledge in the restaurant to do to work with someone like Pierre Gagnaire. And actually I was totally wrong because he came with me and we stayed up to today hand by hand.

Pearl Lam: You are the first one who has this overseas Michelin three star coming here to open a restaurant.

Mourad Mazouz: But Pierre Gagnaire was very 1st, 1st time that I eat in his restaurant.

Pearl Lam: I love Pierre Gagnaire.

Mourad Mazouz: I never eat that before. I never knew a food like this exists. So I was really knocked out by the quality of the food, the technique of the food, but especially the way mix all his ingredients together. And he had, you know, something that didn’t exist before for me, you know, so I was very surprised. And that’s true. When we started the first two years in London, we’ve been very criticized by everyone. Pretentious.

Pearl Lam: Pretentious. Yeah.

Mourad Mazouz: I remember some headline of newspaper independent was ‘dog breakfast baby sick’, talking about the food of Pierre . Guardian was zero out of 20, ‘a place where the Arab will come and smoke cigar’. Quite insulting, almost very insulting. And I was for sure Pierre and I were really, really touched by that because I thought I was totally wrong. You know, if everybody criticized your place, it means you did something wrong. And two years and few months, the first article who came out was A. A. Gill, who put five star of a five. And the article was so well written where two years later and he was supposed to be the most critical critics, food critic at the time. And actually he told, I mean, the article was so beautiful that I still have it framed in my office. And that changed my mind, really. And because this article from this article, I realized that actually I was doing something. It was not so bad. And it was quite interesting because if someone like A. A. Gilll understand it, it meant I’m on the right path. So continue. Which we did.

Pearl Lam: But I mean, do you know what makes, makes this changes? Makes the food critics sudden change.

Mourad Mazouz: Hello. You need to go back 24 years ago in England.

Pearl Lam: Okay. The English taste.

Mourad Mazouz: Not only English, you know, it’s English and the people that live in London. It’s London, really, you know, and even the foreigner at the time living in London, you know, or Italian, the French didn’t really understand what we’re doing. And. But the food was there. It was creative. It was. It was unique. After, like I told you before, with art, we lack or we don’t like, we can recognize something well done or, you know, creative, you know, after, you know, you’re not obliged because the palate, the palette and the food is to do with your childhood.

Pearl Lam: Absolutely.

Mourad Mazouz: So, you know, something conditioning of our childhood.

Pearl Lam: Absolutely.

Mourad Mazouz: So when you have something in your mouth, you know, your palate and youre. Or all the degustative kind of things normally had a reaction mentally, you know. And I think that was one of the problem. The second problem, I was trying to give so much to people. I was, you know, sketch for me was everything I had in my head needed to give it and share it with others. And suddenly people don’t like it. It was so bizarre, you know, and you thought, and somewhere I understand many years after then maybe, you know, music was electronic music a bit quite weird at the time. It was more minimal than techno in a way. You know, the food was very bizarre, you know, the place 360 degree video is art, video, everything. The table goes down and up and we end up as. Because the first two, three years, remember, we end up as a club at the end of the night.

Pearl Lam: At the night.

Mourad Mazouz: You know, so all that’s together maybe was a bit too much, I was supposed, and I didn’t see it this way, but I. People felt it this way, but actually, after two years, slowly by slowly you catch up. You know, people start to understand the taste.

Pearl Lam: Catch up.

Mourad Mazouz: We wondered a bit more our recipes, you know, I put art videos starting to please and not always very edgy. I was starting to be a bit more open, and the people were also more open and slowly, and slowly you catch up and. And also I had a great CEO who came to join us after six or eight months after the opening. And thanks God, because she really hold, you know, the business altogether. Because one thing that I’m not very good is in business. That’s. Yeah, management’s not my. Thanks too much. So I need always to have someone next to me who really take care of that for me.

Pearl Lam: Because honestly, this is, you know, we look around the world, this is the only. This is an institution now. Because you have art, design and food. It’s all about culture. It’s that culture which is important because sometimes when you go to some places, they might look really cool and everything, but the food is not good, and then you go to some place that the food is not good, and then everything, it doesn’t work together, and you are the only one you create. This is totally an institution. And then. And then came the Instagram.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah.

Pearl Lam: All of a sudden, here becomes the most instagrammable venue.

Mourad Mazouz: I don’t know, for me, I’m still old fashioned. Maybe too much. It’s funny because last week I was in Paris and I was two weeks ago. Sorry. I was explaining to my staff there, we need to gain people one by one. When somebody come to it, it needs to be welcome, feel warm, eat well, think and live happy. Our job, and my job is this one, is to please people when they are here. Now, I’m not trying by saying social media, trying to please them through images, through real life.

Pearl Lam: You want substance.

Mourad Mazouz: I mean, real life, you come, you eat, and you go. That’s what it is.

Pearl Lam: Today, most of the business are being impacted by business design, are impacted by social media and Instagram and all that. What’s your take on it?

Mourad Mazouz: I don’t know. Why not? If I always say if something works and works, business, whatever it is you follow, if it works, it’s perfect. They did something right.

Pearl Lam: But then with the Instagram, social media, the counter effect is everything looks the same because they, they use this image. They said this image is cool. Then you turn around. Oh, pink wall, different.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah, because it was, it was already done. I didn’t do it for Instagram.

Pearl Lam: I know, I know.

Mourad Mazouz: It ended up having all these things and people. I was surprised myself to see everyone taking pictures. Actually, I don’t even know if I really like that, to be really honest with you. But. But, well, I’m not going to stop people taking pictures in the toilets if they want to. But it was not made for that.

Pearl Lam: Definitely, definitely. It’s not made for that. But then it is the biggest advertising.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah.

Pearl Lam: You know, everybody, when they come, they just want to go to the toilet. They know about sketch because it is the most Instagram restaurant.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah. Personally, I never had social media. Never. But for the restaurants, you know, I have someone who’s taking care of that. Artificial intelligence will change all that because.

Pearl Lam: Oh, the AI would definitely change all that. I don’t think it will encourage uniformity.

Mourad Mazouz: Think so?

Pearl Lam: Because they take up all the data and if all the data said this is best, then they. So they blast out the images like that. So then you have all the people. Oh, this is a cool image. This is called cool design. Let me be inspired or let me copy. So everything becomes the same.

Mourad Mazouz: Well, a connection where you feel you enter a place where you can see. Then you know someone did it for you. Really? For you. Instagram. Not Instagram. Honestly, from the bottom of my heart, I don’t think of that. I don’t watch, I don’t want to say I’m not interested because it will be against what I’m saying. I’m still. Again, Instagram is part of our life too, so we need. We need to live with it. Live with it.

Pearl Lam: Live with it.

Mourad Mazouz: Now, do I use it in a daily basis personally? No. Maybe, who knows? In ten years time maybe I will use it. I don’t know.

Pearl Lam: Because you’re still having your passion, your passion. And you want to have your friends even to do the flat is through their passion.

Mourad Mazouz: And the way of community is also.

Pearl Lam: You’re talking about soul community.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah.

Pearl Lam: So obviously homogeneity won’t apply to you because of course, you know, here.

Mourad Mazouz: No.

Pearl Lam: Even after 23 years now? Yes, 23 years. It’s still not dated. It’s still very different since the beginning.

Mourad Mazouz: I always, always wanted, under the same roof to mix people. Then we have all the demographic of a city like London. The first two years, I wanted to mix everybody. I wanted the young to meet the older, a businessman to make a dj. You know what I mean? I thought, you know, mixing all this art, food, music and everything together, people will mix. And actually, I was wrong. I was wrong because I realized that people don’t mix as much as, you know, sometimes you, you think then you’re right, but, you know, it was. Didn’t work like this. So what I decided after two, three years is under the same roof, to have different room for different people. So like this, I can mix them under the same roof, but not obligated. Together, they will mix if they want to. You know, you don’t impose it. They choose, you know, and that’s exactly what’s going on. The parlor at the right side during the day. It’s funny because all these room moves. If you do breakfast, comfort food, lunch.

Pearl Lam: A little afternoon love glade, until you started with this venous. I mean, you’re, you’re with it because now everybody is vegan. I’m not vegan.

Mourad Mazouz: I like, yeah, actually it was flexitarian now. You know what I mean?

Pearl Lam: Now. Okay.

Mourad Mazouz: I’m thinking to change it, actually, you.

Pearl Lam: Know, because then, you know, you actually create the food taste towards the trend. Because I remember good old days. The gallery afternoon is always closed.

Mourad Mazouz: Yes. It was an art space.

Pearl Lam: Now it’s tea. Tea and scones. I mean, people start having tea and.

Mourad Mazouz: Scones at 01:00 and during lunch at 11:30. 11:30. Yeah.

Pearl Lam: I mean, it’s incredible.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah, but that’s a lot.

Pearl Lam: I mean, you just adapt. And it evolved.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah, at that. Evolve. And, and the room, as you say, they change sometimes and, and, well, the design is, again, some things I was telling you before, you need to live with your time.

Pearl Lam: Yes, of course.

Mourad Mazouz: So 20 years was 20 years ago. Today is today. And in ten years, the sketch will be different again because it will grow with what’s going on around. You know, that’s why when we talk concept, I’m not always, well, it’s not the word that I use all the time. For me, a restaurant, I always see it as a daisy, a beautiful big daisy. You have the heart where all the insects come to eat. That’s the food. And you have all the petals, every petal. One petal is the phone. The way you answer the phone to people. After is the way you receive the people when they enter your building. After is the way you take them to the table, is another petal. After is the setup of the table, is another petal. After you have the lighting, the music, every detail. It’s a petal. If I take three or four petals away, okay, you will not keep the even a beautiful daisy. You will not keep it because you will miss a part of it. So for me, it’s all that and sketch somewhere. I did it thinking like this. It needs to be all this petal needs to be something who add to the feeling of each customers or each person who passed by sketch, you know? And that’s what I see. Paris is the same for me. It’s also so many of my restaurants. Daisy, every detail needs to be perfect. We’re not perfect. We are human. We make mistakes. But every day, the work is to be as a beautiful daisy as possible.

Pearl Lam: What a beautiful description. Love it. So now, okay, so what is your next? I mean, I was talking with someone and he said what your dream is to open is to have a sketch hotel.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah, maybe I’m working. I’m thinking of that.

Pearl Lam: I’m thinking of that thing, you know, a secret door. You go in, and then it’s just a wa thing.

Mourad Mazouz: No, because actually, sketch is like a hotel without room. You have a fine dining. You have a brasserie. You have three bars. We do breakfast, lunch, afternoon tea, dinner, dancing, like a little club in a parlour on the weekend, you know? So you have. You have all the ingredients, like a hotel without room. So maybe it’s time to think about doing some rooms.

Pearl Lam: Wow. Have you in London or in any other places?

Mourad Mazouz: Start in London.

Pearl Lam: Definitely start in London.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah.

Pearl Lam: Wow. No more France.

Mourad Mazouz: No, I have, you know, I have. I have a still. My little restaurant. Actually, you’re talking about that in France right now above my restaurant. I took the flats. It’s seven flats. So, I mean, free. It took me, like, five years to have them. So I’m doing. I’m doing a flat that I’m gonna rent because in Paris is the opposite of sketch. So what I do between 404 and Derriere, with the courtyard and the building, which is 16th century old Rendon, I’m adding first floor. I’m doing photo and showroom to rent and to exchange, you know. And above, I’m doing flowers, flats where I’m going to rent. Like, Airbnb, but rent by us, it’s not residence hotelier, I would say. I don’t know how we can call it because it’s again, quite different. And I’m asking many friends of mine to do one each. I want to be in their home. So basically, again, bringing my. Always the same system, bringing my friend in doing think, wisdom and create in Paris, I would love. That’s my goal, to create a small community, you know, of people who hang out together because, well, we will have flat, a showroom, a room for to take photos in the meantime, restaurant, bar and restaurant, you know.

Pearl Lam: Wow, I like that. When is it? When is it. I mean, when is it going to be completed?

Mourad Mazouz: Before the end of the year. I was supposed to be. It was supposed to be this summer. But we have a problem landlord, you know, the administration paperwork and everything. So yeah, I french. So I think in November, December we’ll be ready.

Pearl Lam: Am I invited to go there?

Mourad Mazouz: I would love to. I hope you’re gonna stay with us.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, I would love to see it.

Mourad Mazouz: I have big flats. I have flat like 100 square meter flats.

Pearl Lam: Whoa.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we’re doing our first three.

Pearl Lam: And why don’t you do it just before the arbazzle, the Paris plus before October.

Mourad Mazouz: If we miss this year, we will have for next year. Yes.

Pearl Lam: I’m so happy that eventually we have. We are collaborating because now we have four artists working collaborating with sketch. How exciting. It is. Two Chinese, one African and one British artist. And what I mean, Mister Doodle is going to doodle the toilets, which is totally amazing because your laughatory, your little toilet is your actually is the signature of sketch.

Mourad Mazouz: I want to say, after all these years, finally we can do collaboration. I’m so happy that you involved and involved in what you’re doing with art, with us. And thank you so much, Pearl, because, you know, I never imagined we will do it and I’m so happy to do it.

Pearl Lam: Yeah. And it was very exciting because the first one we have Danful Yang, who is art and design together. And then she creates something very wicked and about babies and about fairness, babies. The concept about angels, devils, those I think is really interesting to put along the corridor. The next thing we have Alimi, an african artist coming in and african artist with marks, which is their traditional, and then with women, figurative, but using a lot of textile. When I first went to Nigeria, then I realized. You went to Nigeria, right. We realized that textile is one of the craft and very important signature of the culture, which I’ve just learned so we have that, and then it will be following with Mister Doodle live performance. And a year later, we have Jupei Hong, who is an I, an installation artist, and they’re going to create this huge installation app and sketch. But all these collaborations, like 20 years ago, they’re being frowned at. So for you at that time, to find artists to do installation and at the gallery must be pretty hard.

Mourad Mazouz: It was hard the first year to people to accept, to show recognized artists into a public place. But actually, when you think about it, we have around in average thousand people in an hour today. So you have a lot of passageway, it’s free, it’s an entrance people can enjoy, be touched or not, been attracted or not. Somewhere you’re giving to the public a platform where an artist can be shown, public can be reacting to it without going to museum, you know, just by, because you have a lot of people who don’t go to museum a lot or automatically don’t have this kind of willing to do, and suddenly they in front of artists after, do they gonna be touched or not? That’s another story, but at least it’s there. And I thought, I have all these entrants, I have all of few rooms where I can show artists. Let it, show it, you know, but how about.

Pearl Lam: How about at the time when you were showing all the videos in your gallery, which is at night, turns into a restaurant when you see that, were there a lot of visitors coming in to visit the video?

Mourad Mazouz: We did a lot of link with schools also at the time, you know, because hello, it was a restaurant at night, you can imagine, every night we used to take all the furniture away.

Pearl Lam: Exactly.

Mourad Mazouz: And at 5:30 in the evening, when we close, we needed to be ready for 6:30. It was a huge move to make that every day. And we did it for like, you know, for ten years.

Pearl Lam: Ten years.

Mourad Mazouz: Because during the day, I wanted an empty room for the art video, really deep prop front art video with a proper recognized artist and or not, actually, because a lot of young artists started with also. So that was. So when we change into afternoon tea, like you say today, that’s why I turned this room. And I say every two, three years, I will change the artist and I will work with artists to do, to.

Pearl Lam: Redo the room, because you change. Yeah, you know, you have the furniture and everything. It’s pretty amazing. That and that. But we always thought that, you know, the traditional thinking is artists should not collaborate. It is too exposed. It’s not, it’s not the case anymore.

Mourad Mazouz: We know the art is everywhere, is part of all of us. And like I told you, it’s around us everywhere.

Pearl Lam: Because now art is. Is about democracy, is democratized everyone, you know, with the Instagram as well, the artist is promoting themselves in the instrument. I think the whole thing changes, the whole art world change. And your and sketch the institute, the institution is the forerunner of all that. Yeah, because he never.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah, yeah, but I’ve been here, honestly, I didn’t think at all. It’s just had the space, had friends, have artists who wanted to show. I wanted to show them. I wanted to give to my clients something. So that’s how it came.

Pearl Lam: I mean, you started ten years before these things happened. It’s pretty amazing when you think about it, because now it’s just that, you know.

Mourad Mazouz: But you had many restaurants in the fifties, sixties, were doing paintings on the wall.

Pearl Lam: You even had Mark Rothko doing. Doing the paintings.

Mourad Mazouz: No, you had.

Pearl Lam: Yes, but not to the extent that what you’re doing, what’s your idea every.

Mourad Mazouz: Two years again, is the building who made me made that. Do you understand what I mean? And momos, I didn’t. I was showing artists in music in many other format. But here is because I had the space, I have the wall, I have the rooms, you know, the building made me do that. And also I had an interest, like I told you, I have an interest of what’s going on around us. And I wanted to share it. It’s always about sharing with others.

Pearl Lam: Never imagined. And then African artist is flying in, Alimi is going to do this huge mirrors on it with fabrics. And I think. I think it’s so exciting to start all this, this after 20 something years and after. I mean, I didn’t even know at the time you were having artists to do all these different parts. Because I always thought that you always have one artist to do the whole gallery. But you are very, you know, it’s.

Mourad Mazouz: Well, artist to the gallery since the video, that’s how we change the corridor, the different part of sketch. We, you know, it’s nice to change.

Pearl Lam: I. Yeah, because you have Yogen for many years, and then all of a sudden Yogen is gone, and then you start.

Mourad Mazouz: Yogen was the first two years, basically, you know, when we did the club, the club, you know, but for me it’s. It’s again living with this time.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, I think you. You’ve been keeping evolving, evolving and changing from your menu to the design and.

Mourad Mazouz: Also what you are yourself. You know, 25 years ago, I was 35. Today, you know, I’m 60. So, you know, for sure I changed, you know, and also my. My desire. The artist, you know, the artist touch me. What’s touched me today.

Pearl Lam: How about your children? Does your children do, your children comes in and say that, hey, papa, we want to have this artist. We want to do. We want to change a bit on the. On the design. Are they coming with you with the input as well?

Mourad Mazouz: No, no, no. I mean, first, my daughter is too young, is 14. She loves to come here to eat with her friends by herself. She doesn’t like to be with me. So she comes on Friday night, have a dinner at eight, at 14 with her friends. And my son is 18. He’s doing cinema now. He’s going to NYU next year, so.

Pearl Lam: But your eldest son was in. Was. Was working in one of your restaurants.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah, my oldest son has a restaurant in New York now. He opened a restaurant in New York. Yeah.

Pearl Lam: Himself. None of them want to continue to do what.

Mourad Mazouz: No, no, they won’t have. You know what. And I’m happy of that. I’m telling you.

Pearl Lam: Of course, it’s great. It’s great.

Mourad Mazouz: Hard and tough job to work in restaurants, so.

Pearl Lam: No, but it’s good that they, you know, your elders has their own ownership.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah. No, no, they did. Well, they are what they are, and they will do their, you know, like all of us.

Pearl Lam: It’s a father’s dream. You don’t want to have any of your children to inherit what you’re doing?

Mourad Mazouz: No, I don’t. I’m very particular. I don’t believe in inheritance. For me, it’s.

Pearl Lam: They have to work for themselves.

Mourad Mazouz: No, they have to. You need to give to your children during your lifetime. Give them love, think, exchange, think and show them, you know, help them to walk to their own path, you know?

Pearl Lam: But I always thought that your business is a very family run business because you have your brothers who is helping you as well.

Mourad Mazouz: In Paris. Yes. In Paris.

Pearl Lam: Right?

Mourad Mazouz: Yes.

Pearl Lam: Right. You. It’s like, is this your algerian North African?

Mourad Mazouz: Not really.

Pearl Lam: Because your family unity.

Mourad Mazouz: Yeah. No, no. Yes and no. You know what I mean? I have a brother who worked with me in Paris, but, you know, well, I had few family. I helped them, you know, it’s migrant kind of things. Actually, when they arrive in France, by example, I have two nephew. A nephew and a niece right now in Paris. They just arrived from Algeria. They’re doing their study, so I’m helping them. I’m giving them. They need to work 20 hours a week, so I’m giving them a job. I’m helping them financially and everything, but after that, after a few years is their path and they need to go away, you know, and they need to do their own life. I’m just helping at the beginning. That’s it.

Pearl Lam: Okay. Do you, you would not move back to France. You are UK citizen?

Mourad Mazouz: I’ve been 28 years in UK. I am in English. I’m in Paris a week, a month. I love France. It’s a country which I really, really found absolutely magnificent when I, you know, drive around France. But I don’t know. I mean, I mean, London, I always lived here somewhere.

Pearl Lam: But you don’t go back to Algeria?

Mourad Mazouz: I go back to Algeria for wedding and funeral in general, you know, and also desert because I’m taking some, last year I took some friends of mine in the Sahara and which I don’t know myself very well, you know, but I’m discovering with them. And in October I’m doing a trip actually in Sahara also with some friends of mine, but really real rough camels and sleeping outside and no tent, no things like this, the real thing. So I did it two years ago with some friends. Last year I did it with, two years ago I took some friends with me last year. I’ve been with friends of mine. We drove through different towns like Timmy Moon, Gardella and everything, because it’s a lot of different culture in the middle of Sahara, like the Mozambique in gardeja by example. So I’m discovering all that myself. I know them, I heard about them somewhere. You grew up with them, you know, and the background, but you never, I never been there and I don’t know exactly who are they and their culture. So I’m discovering right now I’m discovering that. And I’m, in October I’m taking a bunch of friends of mine. And funny enough, the woman who take me there with, who I’m doing those trips, she’s half Japanese, half French, and she’s been living for the last 30 years with two air eggs in the middle of Sahara.

Pearl Lam: Wow.

Mourad Mazouz: And she’s a friend of mine. Three years ago, I bought her a first panel, a solar panel and camera and one camel, and she did a movie for seven months. She left with 80 or 90 men, 150 camel. And she did what we used to do at the time, all the tuaregs, it’s the salt, you know, caravan. And so they go to the north of Niger to pick up some salt and bring them back to Nigeria. It takes six or seven months alone, woman alone with, and she did a movie, quite unbelievable. And she’s courageous, unbelievable, and Alisa and voila. So I’m doing stuff like this, which for me, it’s my way of, of, you know, clearing my mind when I do that relaxation.

Pearl Lam: Clearing my mind.

Mourad Mazouz: Like now I just come back from the carnival of Trinidad, you know, which I love, because I used to go to Trinidad in the nineties a lot, and I just came back because I took a friend of mine there to make them discover where the carnival is. And it’s not just the carnival, it’s before the carnival, the competition, it’s art. People don’t see it like this, but it’s art pan. When you have a 130 musician of pan playing in competition, it’s really amazing. It’s great. Musically, I mean, well, I’m open to all these little things around the world. And this culture, which I love, I.

Pearl Lam: Think is because you are so, so open to differences in culture. That’s why that gives you that creativity. You must have a lot of confidence to come in and to decide, okay, this is what I want. This is what I want. This is what I want. Because a lot of people whom I know, they never can make up their mind, even, even with a, with a.

Mourad Mazouz: Curtain color, I don’t know if I can say that’s what I want or that’s what I.

Pearl Lam: It’s not what you want, but this is discovered. Yeah. How you can make decision.

Mourad Mazouz: One thing for me, and we talked before, the thing, it’s, life is only a journey. From the first day to the last day, it’s only a journey you’re gonna go. So enjoy, exchange, share, love, learn, and that’s it, you know, and you have high and lows, and think a moment, think even, even the dark days today, I appreciate them, because I know then it’s gonna. I’m gonna have juice from them, you know, it. Not at the moment when you leave them, because it’s always when it’s dark, is dark, but the next day or the next week after, you get something from it, so I’m not even afraid of that, you know, so. And that’s luck. I’ve been lucky in much, maybe my childhood. I don’t know what happened. I always jump and I’ll see what I felt, what I’m gonna land, you know, in business, in my personal life, and everything’s been like this. Go there, see, and we, and after that, you will see how, you know, you can react from it naturally. I never question too much. I do.

Pearl Lam: Thank you, Murad, for this wonderful conversation. The last time I talked to you was a few years ago. Actually, it was dances at the parlor.

Mourad Mazouz: We’ve been. We’ve been crossing paths for more than 20 years. I had a wonderful dinner in your home. I remember.

Pearl Lam: You have to come back. Yeah. You have to come back to my home to have dinner. And then, and then we have to connect more.

Mourad Mazouz: It was pleasure, Pearl. It’s a pleasure to have you here. And thank you. Thank you so much for the interview.

Pearl Lam: Thank you, Mourad.