Pearl Lam: Hello. Welcome to the Pearl Lam podcast. Today, I want to introduce Maaike Doyer. Maaike, would you please give a brief about yourself?

Maaike Doyer: Brief. That’s the word. Let’s try to do that. Thank you. Yes. So my name is Maaike Doyer. I was born in the Netherlands. An absolute number girl. I really love numbers. Can’t help it. Studied math, worked at the big four in merchant and acquisitions, but quickly realized, right, I was as a consultant, I was writing a lot of business plans. I quickly learned, like, writing a business plan is not saving the world. So I stepped out, and together with a colleague, we built the company business Models, Inc. The company behind the famous business model generation book. And in that role, it led me to expand the company globally. And I got the opportunity to move to the United States, San Francisco. So I moved there and built the company further into the US. Worked there with corporates, with startups, started my own personal angel investing journey. And then after five years there, I decided to do an exit. And that’s what had me move to Singapore. And when I landed in Singapore, one of the things that I really wanted to continue doing was angel investing. And that led me to start epic angels, a female angel investor collective. I knew two things. Education is a big thing for me. I mean, that’s what I was always doing in the US. And the other part was angel investing. I started to do that in San Francisco. Right. Because it’s. When you live in Silicon Valley, it’s hard not to.

Pearl Lam: And especially if you’re advising all the companies for, you’re in the middle of it. I mean, of course you will invest because you will be looking at all.

Maaike Doyer: These opportunities, and it’s also not something special. It’s like getting a coffee, right? It’s just very mainstream. I mean, it’s. It’s nothing special. So when I got here and then opened, you know, all of a sudden, this whole asian market opened up for me because I was new to asian, I traveled there for vacation, and I had a team in Taiwan, actually. So I’ve done a few things here and there, but not really. So this whole market opened up and I saw all these opportunities. So like, I want to continue my angel investing journey, but I mean, I knocked on the door of a couple of collectives that are here, but they were all very old school, a lot of men, right? It was very traditional, but also old school, right? I mean, and I was like, I don’t like this. So I said to three, I met three women here in Singapore and I said to them, you know what? Shall we just do it with the four of us? I know my way around in startup lands. I’ll find us a startup and we’ll see if we want to invest. And they’re like, okay, good, let’s do it. Literally six weeks later, we did our very first investments.

Pearl Lam: How wonderful.

Maaike Doyer: Yeah, so that was what quickly happened was more women started to knock on our door. Not a big surprise, right? But what really was the surprising part, startups knocked on our door as well. They’re like, you’re women, we need female investors. We need women on our cap table because we only have men as investors. We need female investors. Can you invest in us? I mean, we were just four women, so we didn’t have that much money, right? So we couldn’t. And then after a few months, we’re like, okay, what happens if we add one more lady to the mix, right when our five, let’s see if that works. And I mean, I had some extra time at hand. So by November in that year, I was together with another lady, Hester, my business partner. Now for Epic angels. We were like, you know what, let’s just do this for real, right? I mean, I have the time, I have the bandwidth. Let’s open our doors and see if we can really build a community here. And that’s what we did.

Pearl Lam: That was two years ago. I mean, how long you took to build this big community?

Maaike Doyer: Yeah, yeah. So we opened our doors November about two years ago. We’re now about 270 female investors in 25 different countries all over the world, but investing in Asia, in Southeast Asia or Asia, all of Asia Pacific. So it really ranges from Pakistan to Japan, Australia, China, Southeast Asia, anywhere.

Pearl Lam: So when you say startup, what area are you investing?

Maaike Doyer: Usually it’s in tech and any industry. We have done one non tech startup. It’s kind cones plant based ice cream. If you’re here in Singapore, you should try their ice cream. It’s really good.

Pearl Lam: I like milk ice cream.

Maaike Doyer: Funny enough, try it. I would not tell you it’s plant based. You wouldn’t know.

Pearl Lam: I cannot even take vegan food.

Maaike Doyer: No, I’m also, I’m also absolutely non vegan, but I really love their ice cream.

Pearl Lam: What is the name?

Maaike Doyer: Kind cones.

Pearl Lam: Okay. Later on you write it.

Maaike Doyer: Yes. They have multiple outlets in Singapore. I had their peanut butter jelly one this weekend, which was really good. Really? Really.

Pearl Lam: So you invest in them.

Maaike Doyer: So that was the only one. Non tech? That was the only one.

Pearl Lam: They knock on your door and then you study, you do your analysis, you do your numbers.

Maaike Doyer: Yes.

Pearl Lam: And then all your ladies follow you and all they divide it in different groups.

Maaike Doyer: So we are really an angel network, which means every angel decides on her own. So we’re not like a VC fund where you just give money to the lead and they invest for you. No, how it works is we curate, we scout and curate. We have partners with many VC companies in the region, accelerated programs. So we’re trying to scout all the good startups. About 100 startups every month, quite a lot we curate, and about two to four every month are presented to our angels through a pitch night. It’s a virtual pitch night. So online, the startups present.

Pearl Lam: So are you having fun now?

Maaike Doyer: 100%. It’s so amazing. I mean, half of the women have done investing before in startups, but at least half has never done it before. They, and I mean, if you want to be an angel investor, you need to have a little bit of extra money, right? Angel investing is super risky, so you only do that with maybe 5%, max, 10% of your assets. So you need to have some spare money. Which means these women are really top earners, right? They have super senior jobs. When it comes to investing completely new, they’ve never ever done it. Somehow, you know, they were not taught how to do it. They just, you know, but they want to do it, but they just don’t know how. So we really help these women to get from zero to one. Like, how do you get started with investing?

Pearl Lam: With Angela, actually, what you are doing is you are giving confidence.

Maaike Doyer: Yes.

Pearl Lam: Because when you invest, you have confidence. Whenever you do something new, you need to have, you have to have confidence. You have. You are actually grooming. Yes, grooming them, giving them confidence. And when they have the first investment and after their good return, they make it bigger.

Maaike Doyer: It’s like, okay, now I dare to do this. And it’s very funny. We discourage to invest. It’s a big thing, right? I mean, I have this lady, they earn like easily like half a million dollar a year, right? So big earners and our investments already start with only two and a half, $1,000. So that’s nothing, right? That’s, that’s peanuts for these women. I literally tell them the handbag you just bought last week was more expensive, right? More than that, than this investment. And still they struggle to make that investment, which is that confidence. Exactly.

Pearl Lam: As you can use confidence. It’s like when you have the person coming in, they want to be an art collector because their friends are art collector or because socially you sit down, everybody’s talking arthem want, but they don’t have the confidence to buy the first piece because I think they don’t want to lose money, they don’t want to do this. And I, you know, I think it’s very different when you talk about investing. Investing is about them making money, but collecting is about your passion.

Maaike Doyer: Well, I think it’s actually, it’s the same. I feel, I think with confidence.

Pearl Lam: Everything is about confidence.

Maaike Doyer: Because with art, I mean, especially if you’re a big art collector, you’re also trying to do that for some financial return, right? I mean, but it’s, it’s both, I guess you’re doing that because you want to, because you love it, right?

Pearl Lam: You, you want to have to have the passion. But when you talk about. Because when in the art world, we don’t want to talk about investing in art, because investing in art immediately turn artworks into commodities. That means that if it is commodities, I know most of the private banker now has asked all the clients to put 10% of whatever their investment in art. But in the art world itself, we didn’t want to have the artwork becomes commodities because the artist’s career will be in risk. Because once you know the stock market, when it goes up, it goes down and it can come up again. When the artist price goes down, it.

Maaike Doyer: Won’t go up again. Same with startups, of course, startups, if the startup goes down, it’s out of business.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, right.

Maaike Doyer: So I actually see some similarities there.

Pearl Lam: Because, but it’s different because your startup, you can, after it goes IPO, you can make 2030 even hundred times. I mean, you can’t expect from an artwork. I mean it’s a complete different elements. The elements of artwork is at least you can enjoy it, you can, you can feel great because you are actually investing in artist’s career, especially in museum shows, their collections, and whether the value goes up or not, it should be a bonus point.

Maaike Doyer: Yes.

Pearl Lam: I mean, four, I mean, if you are doing vc fund, you are the angel investors. My God, when it goes IPO, maybe in ten years time, the money can be 100 times.

Maaike Doyer: Yes. And what I see.

Pearl Lam: And you can lose everything when women.

Maaike Doyer: Invest, of course, financial return, that’s something that we’re aiming for. But it’s also because we can put money where our mouth is and where our heart is. So I see so many women are using this venture capital money to drive the societal change that they want to see right now. Actually, at this moment, we have two investments live. One is in prosthetic arms based on AI sensors specifically designed for emerging markets because so many people in emerging markets don’t have access to prosthetics. Amazing. Beautiful, right? What this company, what an impact this company makes. And at the same time, it’s a great business, right? They really have a good business model behind it. They have great founders that can make it happen. So you’re going in for the financial return, but at the same time you’re like, okay, if this goes south, I don’t care. I contributed to a real good cause. Right? There should be more emotions. There is. It is emotional as well.

Pearl Lam: It’s so important because I thought when you do investment, you should never have emotions. It should be rationale. It should be numbers. Whether you go to kill it or not is about numbers.

Maaike Doyer: Then I’m not sure if angel investing is the right asset class. If you go in purely for the numbers, some people might do that, but I think you need to have something extra as well. You need to have a passion for it. If you’re purely doing it for the financial return, I would maybe suggest go for real estate or go for some of the more safer asset classes.

Pearl Lam: Because I think a lot of people when they do a VC fund or whatever, because they just want to have this great return. And also they want to, if they believe in a company, they live in the products, they want to be in control and they want to be in the management. You know, there’s a lot of, you know, the VC fund always have this.

Maaike Doyer: But that’s, that’s, I think that’s already a bit further out. Right? I mean, that’s, that is indeed you need to wait. That is what I see a lot. In the more traditional way of angel investing, people are putting half a million dollar into a startup and when they do that, they expect a seat at the table. Yes, that is a bit for me to old school angel investing. That is indeed what you see a lot is these older men, right? They’re retired, they have some good money left and they still want to be, you know, be on that board and call the shots. The new type of angel investor is way more about like two and a half, $1,000. Well, for two and a half, $1,000, you’re not going to get a seat at the table. We still love to be on the board, as sometimes we are, even though the amount that we invested is relatively small. We maybe, I mean, the largest we’ve done so far is $200,000 as a group, which is significant. Right. It’s good. But still, the startups are saying we want you on our board, right. Because we need a woman on our board. No matter if you invested 100k as a group, whether someone else put a million in there, we want you because we need a woman on our board. And that’s fun. I think that’s great.

Pearl Lam: What do you think about when you have all these women doing injury ambassadors? Are you talking about feminism? Are you talking about, you know, in the 1970s, all the women has to go out and they have to. Of equality of the man? Are you talking about that?

Maaike Doyer: No, I mean, I. I honestly, I loaded all that stuff in the past when I was working with the big corporates as well. There’s all these women groups and whatnot. I always avoided that. Everything all of a sudden turns pink. I mean, I studied math in my whole class. There were four ladies, right, and the rest were all guys. I never even saw that as weird or different. I never felt myself opposite, right? I mean, I’m just one of the guys, right? One of just the people that study math, right. And it has nothing to do with being a boy or a girl. I mean, that’s irrelevant in my opinion. So it’s really hilarious that I started this all women group. Now that’s just really super funny how that ended up. I mean, I don’t like, look at us women, right? Because it feels it’s more from a victim perspective when that’s done. And I really believe more in women as change makers and from the strength, and that’s what I want to.

Pearl Lam: But I think feminism came out as a reaction about women being suppressed. We are talking about that in 1960s and seventies. I remember I did, I think it was a BBC or radio or whatever where they were asking me whether I have been discriminated as a woman in the, in the art world. And I said, absolutely not. And I said, and I said, I don’t even feel that there is this gender difference. I actually thought that the woman leads more than, you know, anything. I don’t see man or, I mean, men or women. I think we have to talk about ability.

Maaike Doyer: Yes. And I mean, it is. There’s a lot of talk as well in the VC world about female founders, how female founders are not getting the money that they should get, right. How only like two 3% of the money actually goes to these female founders. And what people have been trying to do for the past ten years, they’ve been trying to convince men, like, you have to invest in women, and it just doesn’t work. And my firm believe is, well, keep on doing that. But I’m not doing that. What I really believe in, we need to get more female investors, and that will solve a lot of things, because when you get in, because women, they’re going to put the money where their heart is, where they really believe that change can be made, whether it’s a man or a woman, that we’re investing as epic angels. We invest in both men and women. Although we did say if it’s a male founder, we need to see a female leadership as well. Like one of the C level people needs to be a woman as well, but doesn’t have to be the founder. Male founder is fine as well. And it’s all about women as change makers. Because if you’re making this investment, right, so you’re this for everyone. Startup investing is high uncertainty. You really have no clue what’s going to happen with this company, what’s going to be there. So looking at all those elements, you try to hold on on that little bit of certainty that you can find, and that’s human nature, unfortunately. Right where the men are sort of holding on to, oh, that’s a male founder, at least. I recognize that a little bit more. It gives me certainty. It’s based on. It’s not correct.

Pearl Lam: I just read in a newspaper, the biggest angel investor in China is a lady. And it’s run by this lady. I mean, it’s a very young woman who runs this firm. I forgot this firm is about angel investor. Of course, in China there’s a lot of startup, it’s a complete different category. But I mean, we are talking about confidence. I think these, I mean, a younger generation of women, that much more confidence than the generation still fighting for feminism and all that. I think the world is changing.

Maaike Doyer: Yes.

Pearl Lam: I mean, today we have paternal leave. You wouldn’t even heard about it, I mean, 30, 40 years ago. So I think this changes, which really give women a platform. But you know, in art world, a woman, a woman artist price is still substantially lower than men. I remember one of the artists, Jenny Horsehood, we were talking about it and they were saying that women prices is like 10% or 20% of men prizes. But however, the art world in the west now, they are offering all the platform for women artists. So women artists has much more, much more opportunities. But when we look at equality, come on, really, can the world be, have equality? I mean, this is something that we were fighting for, looking for. But in reality, would that really happen?

Maaike Doyer: It’s a tough one. So I always struggle with that. Right. This is why she said there’s, why can’t women lead?

Pearl Lam: I’m sorry, why are we looking for equality?

Maaike Doyer: No, I fully agree with you.

Pearl Lam: Why can’t we be dominant species?

Maaike Doyer: And at the same time you’re saying, okay, so it’s only 10%. Right. Of the value of the male equivalent, which is also not what it should be, right? So like. But is that something that needs to be fixed or are we something.

Pearl Lam: I mean, I think today, I feel the biggest problem of today is you look at the gender problem, the race problem, you’re not looking at ability.

Maaike Doyer: Yeah, yeah.

Pearl Lam: I rather, I think in order to be fair, we don’t care the gender, we don’t care the color. We look at people’s ability. That ability should be the calling card.

Maaike Doyer: That’s the only thing that really matters.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, yeah.

Maaike Doyer: Oh, 100%.

Pearl Lam: I mean, now I think in the world, not everywhere in Asia, but it’s a better platform for women to excel because there are countries I just visited, I was told that the women and men’s pay are still not equal. And these are really developed. It’s not develop pain, is develop economy. So it was really pretty that, I mean, the equality of the world is actually, there’s no, there’s no equality. I always say to a lot of, a lot of my ladies friends or a younger generation of girls, and I said, why don’t fight for equality, fight for woman lead. If you want to fight, be the dominant species and do it yourself.

Maaike Doyer: Right. I fully agree with you. Right. I mean, I never understood that. I mean, I grew up, indeed in my education as well, just surrounded by boys and that’s it. And you just got to make sure you’re the best one and you’re standing out. But it’s about you and not whether you’re a woman or not. It doesn’t matter.

Pearl Lam: Next question I want to ask you is tell me about your book, your 4 million copies that you sold about this book.

Maaike Doyer: Yeah. So the business model generation book with the business models and company that I was part of. We are the producer of the book and Alex Osterwaller, he’s the guy who did a PhD about it, he’s the author about it. And it basically is all about stop writing business plans because business plans are completely useless. By the time the ink is dry, the world changed again. Absolutely. And no business plan ever survives the first customer contact. But you have to go through certain thinking steps. If you want to run a business, you need to strategically think about that. So this framework in that book is this one pager, the business model canvas that on a one pager helps you to answer your strategic questions, like, how am I going to create, deliver and capture value for my customers? Because that’s, in the end, what it is about. And since it’s a one pager, you can literally, it’s like art. You put it up on the wall and you can look at it and you can change it and you can make multiple versions of it instead of a business plan. You can’t make multiple versions of a business plan. That doesn’t work. Right. It’s too much work.

Pearl Lam: Usually you have a business bank because your bank wants it.

Maaike Doyer: Because your bank wants it. Completely useless.

Pearl Lam: Yeah. And all these institutional ones that, who wants a business plan and always thought that it’s completely waste of time, 100%. I mean, it’s just to show and just to get something and you never use it and never adapt it.

Maaike Doyer: Yeah, but you do need to go through the strategic thinking, though. Of course you do need to have that vision. But what I also believe in is that you should remain flexible when you do a business because you have certain assumptions. You think, okay, if I’m going to roll this out, this is what’s going to happen. But reality usually is different. You’re like, oh, I thought this would happen. Now it turned out the other thing happens. Okay, great, how does that change my business? Right? And if you do that with the business model canvas, you can literally do it with posts. It’s like, hey, hold on. Or even, I always use the COVID example. Everyone who had an in person store, they had to change online, right? And you can open a website, but that doesn’t change your business right away. You have to think different.

Pearl Lam: And where was it published? In Netherlands or where?

Maaike Doyer: So, yeah, in the Netherlands and it reproduced it and now it’s with Wiley, the publisher, so they took over the rights of the book.

Pearl Lam: Is this led you to become a professor?

Maaike Doyer: Yes, that definitely helped. I mean, I was always doing lectures in education and then with the business model canvas, luckily, in many universities right now, it’s stable, right. Within every curriculum that the students are learning about. The business model canvas and using that as an alternative.

Pearl Lam: So how did this brings you into design?

Maaike Doyer: So the design of business for me. Right. I mean, it was also so when I arrived here. So the business model canvas, since it is a design thinking tool and out.

Pearl Lam: Of the box thinking.

Maaike Doyer: Yes. And it’s about creating options. For me, design thinking is about creating options. So this book brought me all over the world also a couple of years ago already into Singapore, and then I met with Design Singapore. So Design Singapore is a council here run by EDB, the economic development boards, basically the ones that define what happens in Singapore. And design Singapore is all about like, make Singapore a lovable nation by design design in a very broad manner. And when I moved here, they were like, we need you on our board as well. So I joined the board of Design Singapore also really to look at the design from a business perspective. So really the design of business angle, which is my angle in there.

Pearl Lam: So how do you see the future of Singapore business based in your design business model?

Maaike Doyer: I think what in general in Singapore, and it’s moving forward, but I think what could be more is that thinking in options, because Singapore is a tiny country, right. It’s like five and a half million people. It’s relatively easier to say, okay, this is the way we’re going to do it, and we’re all going to. Yeah. And the government is. I mean, I find it amazing how the government runs this country. I think it’s fascinating. Right. It’s really run as a business. I really admire that. They throw a lot of effort, money in a certain direction if they want to move into a direction. I love how that brings the country forward because Singapore is doing extremely well. However, the downside of that has been that many people within the country, they just follow what the government tells them to do.

Pearl Lam: But this is our chinese culture. This is the Confucius culture, to ask you to comply and obey and you don’t even question. You are not. Yeah. You not trained most of the countries in Asia, even in America. I mean, the whole education system is to manufacture robots.

Maaike Doyer: Yes.

Pearl Lam: I mean, you want people to say yes. You don’t want people to think outside because you don’t want one counter revolution. I mean. I mean, you don’t want rebellion.

Maaike Doyer: And I’m from Europe, where we just go on strike every time something happens. Right?

Pearl Lam: Yeah.

Maaike Doyer: Because we don’t agree.

Pearl Lam: I mean, here you can’t strike and you cannot have protest.

Maaike Doyer: Yes, exactly. But you don’t even consider it. I mean, one of, one of my best friends. Kelly, she’s a Singaporean, and I always have these amazing conversations with her. And I’m like, kelly, why are people actually just doing it? And then she’s like, good question. I never considered. You actually could say no, right? Because that’s not how we grew up. And I love having those conversations with her about.

Pearl Lam: I think the problem. I mean, I wouldn’t say the problem is our culture. We have a very. We are very ingrained in our culture, even though we think that Confucius is a little bit backdated. But remember, I mean, recently, chinese government is still building Confucius Institute all over the world, and Confucius philosophy is a direct contradiction to democracy. And then thinking freely, being liberal, is completely different. So it’s very hard, not just in Singapore. I think most of the asian country. I think Hong Kong is better that you doubt, you think you don’t comply.

Maaike Doyer: It’s about.

Pearl Lam: You think out of. I mean, you don’t. You just don’t follow.

Maaike Doyer: Yeah. And I think it’s also about allowing people to fail, because I’ve also.

Pearl Lam: But it’s our education system.

Maaike Doyer: No, I mean, I agree.

Pearl Lam: It’s the education system that although they teach you about free thinking, but they don’t lead you to have a free thinking. Whenever you have a free thinking, they give you this judgmental attitude. So it’s very difficult. And I always say that because when we talk about design as design. Right. To be innovative, to be able to design, you have to be free. Free thinking, no boundaries, nothing. Because I was really impressed when I went to design academy Eichovn, where I see different classes. You know, one is doing textile, one is doing building, one is doing wars between them. I mean, it was just different lectures, because it’s about cross discipline. You have to think in a very.

Maaike Doyer: Multilateral way and do things different.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, I mean. I mean, I thought that was. I was completely stunned by that. It’s very difficult in Asia, because the Confucius culture is very ingrained in. Not just in China, actually, is the least, but is that compliance, that obedience is still there, but that philosophy is very strong, Japan, Korea, and all over. So it’s very hard to ask people to not to follow, because at first, the government won’t like it.

Maaike Doyer: We need more rebel girls, right? We need more people who dare to go against the status quo, not because they want to rebel, but really because, like, hey, just asking that question, why am I doing the things I’m doing it or that are being told to me? There’s actually a different way of doing it as well. And there’s no way, right or wrong.

Pearl Lam: If you’re in an education system that do not encourage you to question. Yeah, so it’s very difficult in the future. How can you question? Because it’s a conditioning, but it’s changing.

Maaike Doyer: Luckily, even I’ve been, if you’re changing.

Pearl Lam: It’S only changing by experience. When you start working, working with, I think a lot of my friends change it because they start working with different companies or going abroad that teach them how to think outside the box.

Maaike Doyer: Yes.

Pearl Lam: And, but also, I think in environment that puts fear in you. The fearfulness also won’t give you that.

Maaike Doyer: But fear is always everywhere. I mean, I remember when we first moved to, to San Francisco, people were like, whoa, that’s so brave. Right? And I’m like, yeah. I mean, I didn’t even consider it brave. It was like, oh, no, fun.

Pearl Lam: Because you are adventurous. Yeah, everybody loves it.

Maaike Doyer: I love it. And it’s, you know, but you have to just try different things. I mean, what’s the worst thing that can happen? That you go back. That’s it, right? I mean, nothing.

Pearl Lam: Waste of time. Time, loss of time. But you gain experience. Experience is something that makes what we are today. And that’s the most valuable thing.

Maaike Doyer: Yes. I mean, moving countries, for me is the best thing that happened. Right. Lived in the Netherlands, lived in the US, now living here. And I find it so fascinating to see all the different cultures. And I learned so much about that. I don’t agree with everything, but it’s not about agreeing, it’s just about understanding. And you also learn so much more about you because even though I think in the Netherlands in general, we’re pretty liberal and open minded, but at the same time, we’re also a bit constricted in a way. And I only saw that when I was living in the US and living in Singapore as even from Singapore, because sometimes you don’t even realize that you’re doing things in a certain structure, but only by stepping out of the structure. You’re like, oh, you can do it in a different way as well. That’s fun.

Pearl Lam: Mackie, quick question. What makes a good entrepreneur?

Maaike Doyer: This is interesting. And we spoke a lot about, like, dare to do things different. And I think for me, that’s what an entrepreneur is also about. Like, what would you consider?

Pearl Lam: How would you define entrepreneurs?

Maaike Doyer: I had a whole philosophical evening once about that question, so that’s a very tough one. But an entrepreneur is someone who, who runs a business in the end. Right. But I mean, are you a startup entrepreneur when you do that, when your mom and pop shop? Maybe not, right? There’s different types of entrepreneurs for sure. But for me that entrepreneur is like, hey, I’m just going to earn my own money and then probably and hopefully build a business around that. What makes a good entrepreneur for me, what we always say is we invest in founders who refuse to die, but at the same time who choose agility over ego. And I think that combination is critical, right, because refuse to die. I mean, as a startup entrepreneur, you get hit in the face every week, right? You just hit a wall or someone hits you or whatever. You have to get up, right? You have to get up and fight. You’re like, that didn’t work. Shoot. How do I get around this wall? Do I get on top of it? Do I go underneath? Do I go on the side? Do I need other people to tackle that wall? You have to be super creative constantly because every single week new issues are thrown at you, of course, and you just have to be able to deal with that. So that’s that. Refuse to die. Like, I’m gonna climb that wall no matter what. But agility over it, determination, really, really determined. And at the same time, that agility over ego, because sometimes I see people are like, my product is the best thing in the world might be, but who needs your product, right? I mean, who’s waiting for that? You have to be super focused on your customer and really constantly being in touch with them. I spoke with a startup founder yesterday and he was like, yeah, I’m gonna launch end of February, 6 weeks from now. And I said, why not launch this week? Yeah, but we still need to do this and this and this. I said, yeah, but your product is never done, right. You need to launch now. I mean, this is a famous quote from Silicon Valley, from Reid Hoffman. If you’re not embarrassed by your first product launch, you’ve launched too late. And I really love that. Right? Like, yeah, it’s shitty that first thing that you put out in the market, but you need to get feedback. You need to get constant customer feedback to get better, to improve. Yeah. And that’s, that mindset for me then onto needs.

Pearl Lam: Very interesting, because I always felt that, you know what, pull an entrepreneur back is ego.

Maaike Doyer: Yeah, is ego.

Pearl Lam: And also I think entrepreneur has to be fearless and has to be open minded. Yes, the open mindedness is very important that you have to accept continuous accepting new and new things coming in because any new things come in. It, it evolved, it changed the whole business. Model.

Maaike Doyer: Yes.

Pearl Lam: So I thought these are all the, all the very important ingredients and at.

Maaike Doyer: The same time, staying true to your vision, right?

Pearl Lam: Yeah. Your vision is very important because most of the people I know, a lot of people doesn’t have vision. I mean, they like to follow because they want to be very safe.

Maaike Doyer: Yes.

Pearl Lam: So obviously an entrepreneur has to have that confidence to break boundaries.

Maaike Doyer: Just like, I mean, that is funny. So I lived in Europe, in the US and in Singapore. Now, when we were asking, you were asking at first a startup scene in the Netherlands, and I was like, it’s not really there. Well, in my opinion, in Europe, I mean, I’m exaggerated. But in general, Europe is retired. Right. I mean, honestly, people, the life in Europe is almost too good.

Pearl Lam: I think after you moved to America, you would never return to live in Europe.

Maaike Doyer: Probably not, no. No. So, because, I mean, everyone has a real good life. There’s a lot of. Lot of equality, actually. Right. The disparity isn’t as big in Europe as it is in the US.

Pearl Lam: There’s more equality than America at any time.

Maaike Doyer: But that also means people don’t have the guts to start something.

Pearl Lam: I actually think that because of the government, because of. Of the social system, because when your social system taking care of everything, then you don’t have this push.

Maaike Doyer: No, there’s no sense of urgency.

Pearl Lam: Yeah. This urgency or the push to up the quality of your life, because your quality of your life is there and then you pay your tax, they give you all the base good system and also it doesn’t encourage you to be ambitious.

Maaike Doyer: No, no, please, no.

Pearl Lam: And I find a lot of european system is they have a discrimination against wealth.

Maaike Doyer: Yes. Oh, yes. And it’s also socially not very accepted. It’s people, you know. No, no, no. We don’t like that. Just be normal.

Pearl Lam: Yeah. Tell me more about your newest investment in all these cities. I mean, all these countries like Pakistan.

Maaike Doyer: Pakistan is a fascinating one.

Pearl Lam: I know, we’re actually, I think the grove is pretty.

Maaike Doyer: It’s the fifth largest country in the world and it’s a country we don’t hear a lot about in general. But the women there are a whole other league. I don’t know what it is, but we did two investments and we’re closing the third one right now in Pakistan. I remember on your show you also had this pakistani lady, right?

Pearl Lam: The chef, Sara. Sara did this fair cafe I still have to visit.

Maaike Doyer: I mean, when I was listening to her, I was like, oh, yep, she got that same fire. Right. It’s just amazing.

Pearl Lam: I think it’s amazing is because of her parents, because I, you know, when you read about Pakistan, we learn about Pakistan. It’s always, I always felt that it was such a male dominated countries that girls are not allowed to study. But then she has these fascinating, fabulous parents who are all academics, and they push the children.

Maaike Doyer: Yeah.

Pearl Lam: And I think three daughters.

Maaike Doyer: Yeah. Luckily, there’s a lot of education they can get outside of the country as well. So there’s some opportunity there so that they can see different things.

Pearl Lam: But at least the parents allow the daughters to go abroad to study. Because what you readdez and what is happening, I think that only comes to upper middle class family, because when you have to talk about the working class, there’s still a lot of illiterate there.

Maaike Doyer: Speak with a lot of female entrepreneurs in Pakistan. And what is so shocking to me, some of them are like, they’re these kick ass women, right? They run these companies, good businesses. If they want to go to a business meeting in the, they still have to ask permission to their. No, yes.

Pearl Lam: Wow.

Maaike Doyer: And, and no. It’s, and it, for me, it was like, what? Like, what’s, what’s happening here? And the funny part is that it is sort of that social system and even saying, like, my husband will never say no to me. Right. I know that that’s happening, but still, you sort of have to go through that motion. And what I see there is sort of this really smart thinking that these women have, like, okay, I just, you know, gonna do this manipul helping is how I like to call it.

Pearl Lam: It is a survival thing. It is survival, survival thing. In order for them to get the.

Maaike Doyer: Freedom and they know what, they know how to get it. And that’s the, that’s the funny thing.

Pearl Lam: We are put in that surrounding you have to have.

Maaike Doyer: Not every. Well, the majority just complies, but there are a couple of women that really are coming from that suppression, and then they’re like, I’m gonna get what I want, right? And I’m gonna play it smart.

Pearl Lam: When you move to New York, are you gonna expand your, your female angel investors?

Maaike Doyer: Yes, actually, last year, the us investors was the largest growing group of our collective, which is very interesting. There’s a lot of specifically Asian Americans in the US that either were born in the US or just moved there together with their parents on a younger age. But in the US, people are a lot focused on the US. Not so much outside of the borders, of course. It’s always so when you look at the investment landscape, there’s a lot of investment opportunities within the US, but not so much outside. So if you are living in the US and you want to diversify your portfolio and include Asia, which is, I mean, the gdp growth is going to come from Asia in the next couple of years. So if you want to invest there, it’s hard to find those opportunities. So that’s what we’re offering to the women in the US as well, to expand your portfolio into the Asia Pacific region.

Pearl Lam: Very interesting.

Maaike Doyer: Yeah. So that’s going to be very fun.

Pearl Lam: For all the viewers. Please give a tip. How to build courage to invest, how.

Maaike Doyer: To build that courage to invest or.

Pearl Lam: How to build courage in general.

Maaike Doyer: Stop analysis paralysis, that’s for sure. And start moving with super tiny baby steps. Right? I mean, don’t make a big jump right away, that is too much. But start small and from there you can grow. Right? But start, that’s that most important thing. And what’s that for you pro, if you think about what gives, how to get more confidence, I think confidence is.

Pearl Lam: I mean, I always say to a lot of young, young kids, to conquer the world, you have to have confidence. Confidence is you need to achieve. So achieving big things, small step by small step. Like when you get good marks in your examination, you become more confident when you start working, when you do small jobs, when you do it well, you get compliments, you get confidence. So it is building. So you are building yourself. But you have to take risk.

Maaike Doyer: Take the risk. You have to.

Pearl Lam: If you don’t take risks, I mean, first your life will be so bored because every day is the same thing and. But if you take risks, you learn. If you fail, it’s never bad because you learn from your experience.

Maaike Doyer: If you mean if you learn how to ride a bicycle, you have to fall off. That’s the only way to learn, right? So, yeah.

Pearl Lam: Thank you, Mackie, what a splendid and enjoyable talk with you.

Maaike Doyer: Thank you. Had a lot of fun, right? You need more courage, more confidence into the women.

Pearl Lam: I’m coming to ask you for the art business advice.

Maaike Doyer: Yes, it will be interesting.