Pearl Lam: Hello, Kemi. It’s wonderful to have you here. Let’s begin with your african name and what your artwork is about and about your practice.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes. Hi, Pearl. Thank you so much for having me here. I’m so excited to be here. And I very proudly will speak about my name. My name is a Nigerian name because I’m from Nigeria and specifically a yoruba name, and it’s Olukemi Lijadu. And Olukemi means God pampers me.

Pearl Lam: Wow.

Olukemi Lijadu: I love it. Yeah. So it’s a very powerful name. And whenever people are saying my name, they’re affirming that reality, and I think it’s true.

Pearl Lam: So you have to teach me how to pronounce the name. So send you my blessing.

Olukemi Lijadu: Exactly. Olukemi Lijadu. And I’m an artist and a filmmaker and a dj, and my practice is interdisciplinary. I actually trained as a philosopher. I studied philosophy at Stanford University as an undergraduate and also master’s level, looking at african philosophy specifically for my thesis, for my master’s thesis. And I didn’t know that I was going to be an artist when I graduated, but I feel like I’ve been an artist for a long time, in hindsight. So since I was 16, for my 16th birthday, I received a video camera for my birthday present. And from that day, I started documenting my family, specifically my grandparents. Because I was away from home, I was studying in the UK. And up until leaving Nigeria for the UK, I’d been very, very close to my grandparents. So I developed this anxiety about not being around them or them potentially passing away whilst I was not there. So the camera, for me, was a way of holding on to. To their memories and also became a way to have conversations. I could put the camera in front of them and ask them about their life. And what was it like living in Nigeria in the eighties and the seventies? And who are they? And what words of wisdom do they have for my potential? Children and their children. You know, to me, it was very magical having the camera.

Pearl Lam: Let’s start from and from. From the very beginning. So you went to boarding school here? Yes, right. At what age?

Olukemi Lijadu: I went to boarding school here at 13.

Pearl Lam: At 13. So then why did you choose to go to Stanford? And when philosophy is not really, you know, you don’t go to Stanford to study philosophy. You study technology, you study all other things. Why Stanford?

Olukemi Lijadu: Palm trees. That’s why.

Pearl Lam: Palm trees.

Olukemi Lijadu: Palm trees and the sun.

Pearl Lam: I would have expected that you would have gone to. So.

Olukemi Lijadu: Right, palm trees and the sun. You know, I live in the UK. Now I’m managing it, but I feel most alive in the warmth, with the sunshine. And so I just knew that if I was in an environment where there was the sun and, you know, I saw pictures of people on their bikes, I thought that it looked amazing.

Pearl Lam: Very simple answer.

Olukemi Lijadu: Absolutely. But I also feel like even though I wasn’t at a school that was dedicated to the humanities, you know, in the way that schools on the east coast or schools in the UK are, I felt like it was really helpful almost to be in an environment different from. Because you’ve been spending so many years. Exactly.

Pearl Lam: And then let me ask you, what is african philosophy system? I mean, that’s what I read, african philosophy system. I’m trying to make out, what is it about? Explain that to me.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yeah. So, I mean, there’s this challenge, I think, and I feel like you must feel this, too, with the label. I feel like the label of african or the label of Chinese as somehow limiting, potentially, and I think african philosophical systems just speaks to thought and what people are saying historically and contemporarily about the way that we should live coming from people that are from the african continent, basically. So, I mean, there’s a huge amount of cultures. I mean, within Nigeria alone, there are over 36 and many, say more tribes, ethnic groups, and I, within that, their own languages, and then within those, all their different ways of living and thinking about living. So there’s an enormous amount of african philosophy.

Pearl Lam: When you say philosophy as such, is, are there books about african philosophy, or how do you research about african philosophy?

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes. Herein lies the tension that I found when I was doing my studies. And that is because the western world prioritizes sort of the written word.

Pearl Lam: Yes, absolutely.

Olukemi Lijadu: Law. However, a lot of african thought has been contained orally and is passed down through generations through oral tradition. And however, our modes of researching, whether it be through history or philosophy, prioritize the written text as the sort of foremost sort of source material. And so when you’re looking at african philosophy, there’s attention, or there can be a tension sometimes because so much of it is oral. Yeah, absolutely. But then that draws me to probably the most, the north star of my studies, and it’s this woman, once again, a powerful woman called Sofia Luole. And she was the first nigerian woman to earn a PhD in philosophy.

Pearl Lam: Wow.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes. And she’s a yoruba woman. Oh, Yoruba, yeah, absolutely. So she was kind of. She provided the framework for my master’s thesis, and she has this book that I stumbled upon called Socrates and Orumilla. And Orumila is the central figure in Yoruba philosophy and theology. And with her research, she found that Aurumilla was a real person. Socrates, the father of western philosophy, was also a real person. They lived at around the same time, and both of them never wrote anything down. So everything we know of Socrates is actually secondhand. It’s through Plato. Everything we know of Orumilla are in these verses that are passed down through generation to generation. So she made the very powerful argument that, yes, we take what Socrates has said as law, even though he never actually wrote anything down. It’s still word of mouth, in the same way that Yoruba philosophy and thought is.

Pearl Lam: How interesting.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yeah.

Pearl Lam: So what was your. I mean, your thesis for your master?

Olukemi Lijadu: Yeah, my thesis was basically discussing, on a structural level, how it’s important for african philosophy students on the continent to study african philosophy. Because unfortunately, even in many of the university curriculums in Nigeria, it’s predominantly western philosophy that people are talking about.

Pearl Lam: Oh, it is. Oh, my God.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes. And also for it to be included in syllabi within the western world, across the world, globally, just making the argument that we shouldn’t totally undermine it because of the oral. The nature of oral tradition, because many cultures also value oral tradition as highly as the written word. And people can lie writing. They can also lie with, you know, speaking.

Pearl Lam: Absolutely. So philosophy actually is a great basis for contemporary art. As an artist, this is really the best basis for it. So how did you integrate music and moving images? Moving images. You just mentioned about how your grandparents has inspired you to take videos of them. So about music. You love music and your parents. Your parents love music.

Olukemi Lijadu: I love music so much. And the genesis of my love for music really just started in my living room at home in Lagos with my dad. Both of us have trouble sleeping, so he’ll come back home from work, and we just stay up very late listening to music from everywhere. So we’d listen to music from the Caribbean. We listen to Lee Scratch Perry. Then we listened to Aretha Franklin. Then we listened to Fela Kuti. And so just growing black music, so much black music. But we’d also listen to Mozart, and we listened to Yo Yo Ma, and we listened to, like, it was a comprehensive, global musical education that he gave me in the living room, basically. And we’re both very obsessive. So we can listen to one song, like, eight times.

Pearl Lam: I love it.

Olukemi Lijadu: And he’ll be like, okay, listen, do you see how the key changes here? Or do you see, okay, this is one version of the song, and let’s play, like, three different versions by three different artists. And how did they interpret it? So it was really a deepen.

Pearl Lam: But I’m surprised that you didn’t study music then.

Olukemi Lijadu: I mean, I play the piano and I also play the guitar, but I didn’t have role models for artists. I didn’t. Even though I feel like I was surrounded by music and art. I didn’t know many people, especially many women, people that look like me, that had made a life of art, you know, because my dad loves art, but he’s a lawyer. So I always felt, okay, art is something you love, but then you’re serious. You have your serious life. And it took maybe when I was in university, I started Djing, and I. And it was very, very interesting. That’s when I first started thinking about the diaspora and the music as a way of connecting people, because I had a unique background. Was nigerian, grew up in Nigeria, but then I lived in the UK, and so I developed this, you know, british accent. So I felt like when I was in the US, people saw me as british, even though I saw myself as nigerian. And so I feel like my identity was, you know, thrown into, like, different vocals.

Pearl Lam: That’s what when we all live abroad and being sent abroad, exactly. And when we go back home, we are like them, but not exactly like them.

Olukemi Lijadu: Moving to America was very interesting because I felt like I was interpreted differently from how I saw myself being this nigerian girl that grew up in Nigeria but then has this british accent. And so then being seen as british, I felt would kind of like, sort of erase my nigerian identity. But when I started Djing, it was almost like I could make a statement about who I was. I could weave all these different parts of my identity to. Through the music I play. So I could play nigerian music, I could then play, like, you know, british music, like, the genres that have emerged here, like, by black people. And then also like, the american music that I grew up. African american music, I grew up listening to with my father and sort of make a statement about who I was.

Pearl Lam: But, you know, that we all been sent away, you know, both colonies. Yeah. And being very british dominated, we were all sent here. And then when you go abroad, they think that you are not really chinese, but I do look like chinese. And then when you go back home, and then you find out a lot of your friends, they went to America, they went to all different places. So I think you and I will have a similar experience being in a place, grew up in a place, born in a place where it’s heavily influenced by british culture.

Olukemi Lijadu: One of the things I’d like to ask you, Pearl, is how have you dealt with misunderstandings or misinterpretations of chinese art, particularly chinese abstract? Because I know that maybe I see a parallel between my interest in african philosophy and it being dismissed, and what the work that you have done and are doing.

Pearl Lam: I tell you my story. For a long time, I always felt that there was a missing link between what I read about the chinese contemporary artists. Especially I read in English, because my chinese standard is only until eleven years old. So I always felt that there was a huge missing link until around, I tell you, around 2004, 2005. And one of the artists gave me an online, online essay. Normally people would take an hour, less than an hour to finish it. Took me a week to finish it because my chinese standard is really bad. And after that, I found out all the link was connected. So I was trying to find the person who wrote that and that essay, and that was Professor Gao Ming Lu. So I said, okay, can I meet with this person? So everybody came back and said, oh, unfortunately he’s reached. Returned to Pittsburgh, because he was the professor at the Pittsburgh University. So I said, okay, fine, can you make an appointment? So they made an appointment. I flew over to Pittsburgh, I met with him. And the funniest thing with Professor Ka Minh was I sat down, he said, I don’t curate for a gallery. I said, don’t worry, my gallery just opened. I mean, at the time, I think 2000, yeah, just opened 2005. I’m not asking you to curate the show. He said, only curate form for music. I said, I’m not asking you to, correct, I’m just coming to ask you for knowledge. He said, you flew all this way to come for knowledge? I said, yes, that’s what I want, because I couldn’t understand what was going on. So we had the 3 hours conversation, really long, 3 hours conversation every now and then. He said, I couldn’t understand why you’re flying there so long. Anyway, after that, I went to. I left for London. And at the time, I spoke to the ICA director at the time was Philip Dodd. So Philip said to me, I said, look, philip, I got a problem is if I find out that I couldn’t understand it was all these missing link. And I think that I want to do something about it. I want to make sure that everybody, I mean, people would understand, because what happened is all the catalogue essay was written at the time. They never interviewed the artist. They only write in accordance from what they believe, what they see when you talk to an artist was completely different. So the link was getting wider and wider. So he said to me, I have to set up a foundation, and the foundation should be a closed door foundation led by all the leading western museum people, curators, museum directors, and also from the Chinese. And then we have a closed door dialogue, a conversation. So that was set up in 2008. And then I invited Kao Ming Lu to lead the chinese side. And on the western side, it was Nicholas Sorota. So we had a closed door dialogue for three days. And it was great because it came out. And I think at the time, in the west, their attitude was they were open minded. They said, okay, let us try to understand with each another. So one of the professor from the Ohio university was saying that it was first time ever happened, but it was a closed door summit. So that was at the beginning of my foundation, China Art foundation. So we would try. The whole mission about the China Art foundation, which I created, is only to address the misunderstanding and also to create this dialogue between the east and the west. And it’s about chinese art and using culture. This is another story. So go on. And then when you came back, when you went back to Nigeria, do you feel that? What do you feel after being educated in England and in America? Because I saw that you organized this symposium talking about post colonial time, whether you are going to keep all the colonial art and all that. Tell me more about that.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes. So I feel like, in a very interesting way, being away from Nigeria almost propelled me more towards understanding my culture and who I am, you know, and history. Nigerian history isn’t on the nigerian curriculum, so one can be Nigerian had spent their whole life growing up in Nigeria, but still not be intimately aware of one’s culture. However, being abroad has maybe given me more access to research and given me the space to learn and be curious about the past. And so that’s been something that’s been really. I’ve been really passionate about spreading awareness, but also, like, deep knowledge and appreciation for our own cultural history. And so in 2019, I organized a symposium with my friend Koejo Abudu, who’s a critic and a writer and curator. And we wanted to have a conversation about the brazilian, sort of the links between Brazil and Nigeria. And this is something so many people don’t necessarily realize. So there’s a part of Lagos, I don’t know if you went to Lagos island, the marina, that’s kind of like old Lagos.

Pearl Lam: I went to different islands, but I cannot remember the name. But next time, when I go, I’m going again, so I will go.

Olukemi Lijadu: What is a tour?

Pearl Lam: What is it called? Marina island. Well, it’s called Ajarnitur.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yeah, that’s in the area called Marina. And it’s basically, there’s so much architecture there that was built and designed by brazilian returnees. So, basically. And this is also in my family, my father, both his parents come from people who had actually returned from Brazil. So people who had originally been taken as slaves to South America, but they or their parents had become free men and decided to return back to their homeland.

Pearl Lam: But they don’t even. They won’t even know about the country at all.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes, but they came back, and with them, they brought back so many skills. So because they had been, you know, building Brazil, they’d been the ones actually, you know, doing that. So many of them came back as architects or skilled tradesmen. So on my father’s maternal side, his grandfather was called Domingo Martinez. And on his paternal side, there were the Ferreiras.

Pearl Lam: Ferreiras.

Olukemi Lijadu: So it’s very interesting, even though I am nigerian, very much nigerian, there’s also this brazilian heritage. And then my mother is half jamaican, so I’m very connected to the diaspora. And so anyway, so my mom was actually. She’s an architect, and she was in a building. And she pointed out to me, she just brought it up in conversation, that the building had two different levels of floors. And it’s because one floor, the. I think the structure of the building was interrupted by the nigerian civil war. So when it was restarted, the floor wasn’t level. And she was just talking about how there’s so much history in our buildings and we don’t talk about it enough. And so Koedra and I decided to have a symposium, talk about the brazilian architecture in Nigeria. And I. Once you start a conversation about architecture, you’re talking about history, you’re talking about the slave trade, you’re talking about migration, you’re talking about cultural preservation, because so many of these buildings are not being maintained. And so we invited an artist, an architect, a photographer, and a historian to all do presentations. And followed by, like, a Q and A and discussions. And it was free and open to the public. And we were overwhelmed. We were overwhelmed because it was totally packed.

Pearl Lam: Let’s talk about your film guardian angel, which last night I was watching it. It was really interesting because there were all different threads of different music from and from different genre. It was there. And then you were talking about your grandmother. You are addressing religion, Catholic with Yoruba religion, spirituality. And what amazes me is after I watch it, I was just saying to you, I was in Brazil, I was in Salvador, and it just so connected, I think you. Can you talk more about how, what, what was your intention when you were making this movie? And this movie is funded by IcA, right?

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes, yes. So I received a grant from the ICA and that was how it all came about. And the genesis of the film really started with my master’s thesis when I was just thinking about the challenges of studying african philosophy. Even when I was studying it, I was coming up against the fact that with colonialism and with the missionaries when they came to Nigeria, they really demonized our traditional practices and traditional belief systems, and much of our philosophy shows up in our traditional belief systems. But it’s actually almost very taboo to even say that you’re interested in it because people would just be like, this is witchcraft.

Pearl Lam: You know, even in Nigeria.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes, yes, within Nigeria, very much so, because so majority of the population identify as christian or Muslim. And whereas in at least in cosmopolitan cities like Lagos, it’s actually quite taboo to even have an interest in the traditional. Yes. Colonialism really worked, basically. And I was very frustrated because I was like, wow, I loved the ancient Greeks. I loved studying all the stories about the gods, and you learn about Zeus and Aphrodite and all these crazy stories, but there was no, it was almost like you couldn’t look at traditional Yoruba religion, which was very similar in terms of having different orishas, which. Exactly. You can’t look at them because it was seen as taboo. But I was like, you don’t need to be, you don’t need to be in the religion of the ancient Greece to appreciate the story of Zeus or Aphrodite or. Exactly, yes.

Pearl Lam: Even when I was in Brazil, I visited all these chapels and then I was told that they have these religious sculptures, maybe a Virgin Mary or whatever, but it’s not really representing Virgin Mary because they have the Yoruba gods inside the deity in representing. And how they were not allowed to worship their own religion.

Olukemi Lijadu: Absolutely.

Pearl Lam: So are you saying that during the colonization, they have destroyed this whole culture?

Olukemi Lijadu: I mean, it’s not possible to destroy a culture, but what you can do is you people find covert ways to still practice them. So you see, in Brazil, it’s almost like they use Catholicism as like a cover to still, you know, so in Nigeria, and you even see with a lot of the way that evangelical Christianity is practiced in Nigeria, it’s very reminiscent of the way traditional Aoife, spirituality is expressed. So I think people might not be explicit about their. Or they might not even be aware. It might be a subconscious expression.

Pearl Lam: I was interested in this robust virtuality. I told you already. I even went to, did my cleaning or wearing all white. I was so into it.

Olukemi Lijadu: Interesting. There’s so much knowledge. There’s. I mean, there’s allegory. There’s a lot to learn.

Pearl Lam: But. But your movie itself was very interesting because you use your, you use your grandmother, and then with your grandmother speaking, and then immediately you were dressing about Cathology, and your mother, your grandmother was talking about Catholic. Catholic. And then he was talking about spirituality. I mean, being in her generation, isn’t that really difficult? It’s very forward thinking to compromise the both.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes, very, very.

Pearl Lam: And it was, you know, the 30 minutes movie, and with your music, it was splendid. Is this the first movie that they are really talking about african culture in the way of using religion, spirituality as a philosophy point of view?

Olukemi Lijadu: I mean, I wouldn’t say it’s the first movie. I think people, even within Nollywood, have been dealing with a lot of these questions and issues.

Pearl Lam: I actually like Nollywood.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes, yes, exactly.

Pearl Lam: And so colorful. Everything.

Olukemi Lijadu: Exactly. And a lot of. I mean, people do address it in the. A number of ways, but I think for me, it was, I was interested in film as a medium because I could write a philosophy paper. Nobody will read that. Or I could, but I could, you know, do a lecture. But, you know, that’s also sort of inaccessible. But film is a medium where people are able to come to it and feel able to.

Pearl Lam: You put your djing music integrating with your moving image to address your african culture. But you’re talking about religion and spirituality.

Olukemi Lijadu: Exactly.

Pearl Lam: I mean, yes.

Olukemi Lijadu: And actually, I perform. I do performances where the film is playing, and I’ll be djing the score live concurrently. So the score is actually something that’s ever shifting and changing. And depending on which performance come to, it might be different.

Pearl Lam: When you do a movie, you are at the background. When you’re djing, you are in front of the crowd. So explain to me how, from the behind to the front, how do you feel about djing the music especially? I mean, you went to four different continents. I mean, how was your last experience with Tokyo feel like?

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes, Djing in Tokyo was great. I didn’t show Guardian angel there. I just played music. But I was really just amazed by the appreciation for african music.

Pearl Lam: Afrobeats.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes.

Pearl Lam: I learned afrobeats the last. Last trip.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes. I was invited to a party, quite like an underground party. And when we got in there, it was totally afrobeats. And me and my friends are the only black people there. What, and everybody was dancing? Yes. And I really, really, really was just moved by music’s ability to get to people, connect people. Yes. Yes. In a way that other ways of communicating find difficult. Music is almost its own language, in a sense that people can feel an emotional resonance. So even if someone watches my film, and that’s why the music was so important for Guardian angel, even if somebody watches my film and doesn’t quite, is still mulling over what it’s trying to say. The music is telling a story, but.

Pearl Lam: It’s very clear what you were saying. You were taking, you know, some old picture and then. And then questioning.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes.

Pearl Lam: I mean, those questions about african spirituality being lost and then religious, because Catholicism is very strong. You speak. But I really like seeing your next movie. You know, the clipping of sisters. It seems that you like very strong women.

Olukemi Lijadu: I do.

Pearl Lam: You like strong women to be the main topic of your. Of your movie?

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes, I do.

Pearl Lam: What are you trying to talk about in sisters?

Olukemi Lijadu: Yeah. So this is my next project called Sister, Sister, and it’s a documentary about the Le Jaatu sisters, who are my aunts. And they were musical twin sisters, singing sensation in Nigeria from the seventies. They were the first female band, cousins of Fela Kuti, television regulars. They appeared on a Saturday, on television every Saturday, Saturday during that period. And they were freedom fighters, outspoken. They were not afraid to speak out against the government, even against the military government. Absolutely. And they spoke up about women’s treatment in the music industry. They were very, very radical. They are very radical women. Anti Kane Day is late, but Auntie Taiwo is still alive, and she lives in New York, and we’re very close. So it’s getting to know them. It became important for me in the same way that it was for my grandparents, to preserve their story, to celebrate them. Exactly. And also the power of people being able to see people like themselves. I think it does a huge thing for the human psyche just to even see.

Pearl Lam: Let me ask you, do you have gender equality in Nigeria? Is the woman a man of equality? Because your mother is an architect, your father is a lawyer, and your father told me she and he grew up in France, so obviously he doesn’t have these baggages of being this african male, chauvinistic.

Olukemi Lijadu: I think everybody is confused. I think everybody confused, yes. Because there’s so many things that people think of as african or as nigerian that are actually brought from colonialism. So in Guardian angel, for example, we talk about, there’s that clip of the dutch couple, the missionaries, and they’re talking about how, you know, they’re teaching people to only have one wife.

Pearl Lam: Yes, yes.

Olukemi Lijadu: They’re talking about monopoly monogamy versus polygamy.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, polygamy.

Olukemi Lijadu: And the interviewer asked them, is this actually something in the Bible, or is this just a european thing? And, you know, they stumble. They’re not able to answer the question.

Pearl Lam: In the Old Testament. In the Old Testament, all the kings has plenty of wives and women.

Olukemi Lijadu: Exactly, exactly. But unfortunately, and that also comes with the lack of teaching history, so many people have absorbed the colonial values and think of them as african culture without actually thinking about so many people have imbued traditional ideas of the roles or european traditional ideas of the role of women and men.

Pearl Lam: So are you telling me that before colonialism, you have gender equality between african men and women?

Olukemi Lijadu: Well, I mean, I think it’s complicated. It’s complicated.

Pearl Lam: But it was not like, I mean, african man is very male chauvinistic.

Olukemi Lijadu: I mean, it’s complicated. I mean, there’s a philosopher or a sociologist called Oyerankare oye Wumi, and she also, I looked at her for my master’s thesis, and she talks about the role of women. Her book is called the invention of women, and it looks at the role of women and men in Yoruba society, pre colonialism. And she makes the argument that actually the most salient way of sort of discerning or distinguishing people in western society is gender. Right? So men and women. But in Yoruba society, it was actually age as opposed to man or woman, and that she uses the way our language is spoken as sort of proof for this. So there’s actually no, we don’t have gendered language in Yoruba. So if you’re an older sibling or younger sibling, as opposed to brother or sister, you know, and so she makes the argument other thinkers and philosophers have pushed back. And so it’s an ongoing dialogue. But what’s clear is that the way in which gender played out in Yoruba society was not the same as in european society. So that’s what I can say conclusively, but it’s definitely a conversation to say. And I think equality is also a complicated concept. Right.

Pearl Lam: Who can have equality?

Olukemi Lijadu: Exactly.

Pearl Lam: But it’s an ideal way of addressing it was differently.

Olukemi Lijadu: I’ve never. I never thought of myself as a woman, that I would never work, or that certain opportunities would not be open to me.

Pearl Lam: But I was also told that in african tribes, the woman high priestess is the one who rules everything. Who’s the one who controls everything.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes. I mean, there are various different ethnic groups that have their own orientations and configurations of how women would operate within the society. And it was never just a default that you can’t look at an african society or group and be like, men are going to be the ones ruling there. Many different configurations.

Pearl Lam: I was really interested when I was told by the german lady, Susan Wenger, and how she lead the whole tribes, being a German, a white German, and being the highest priestess, and taught all these locals who are illiterate to become well known artists.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that’s the thing. It’s always more complicated than we might think. It’s always more nuanced than we might think. There always. The dynamics of the west don’t always play out in the same way on the african continent. Exactly. Like, for a german woman to occupy that space as a Yoruba woman, many people see her as a Yoruba woman. You know, that’s something that would disrupt western conceptions completely. Racial relations, you know? So I think that’s really my goal and the push of my artistic practice, which is for people to complicate their ideas and understandings of our society, our culture.

Pearl Lam: You won an award to go to Chicago to dj and to work with Fiesta Gate. I mean, the question I have for you is, is Fiesta gay doing performance of art with your music and as the background? And also, can you explain to the audience who is the ester gate?

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes, so I was one of the recipients of the Villa Albertine Grant, which is sort of a residency supported by the french government. And so, yes, I was one of a handful of african artists selected this year. So I’m super excited for it and supported. I’ll be supported by Marianne Ibrahim Gallery, who also have a space in Chicago. And, yes, I will be researching the links between west african traditional music and Chicago house music. And theastic Gates is the custodian of an incredible archive, the Frankie Knuckles record collection.

Pearl Lam: What?

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes.

Pearl Lam: Really?

Olukemi Lijadu: And so what I’ll be doing. Doing is actually going into that archive, very grateful to him for preserving it, and sort of looking through the archives to see the sonic resonances between the continent and. Yeah, and, yeah, the Americas. Yes. And I think, once again, it’s part of just my general sort of impetus and pull towards looking at the links between the diaspora across the Atlantic.

Pearl Lam: Please explain who is Theaster Gates? Because I think most of the audience who is not in the art world would not know who is Theaster Gates?

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes, Theaster Gates is an incredible artist. He’s from Chicago and he is a musician, an architect, of sorts, researcher, sculptor, and he’s really into music and black music. Last year he did the pavilion at the Serpentine, and there was a beautiful performance there, the Black Mandeh performance. He sort of runs and orchestrates a choir that speak to sort of the history of black people in the states.

Pearl Lam: But he’s only interested in american. African. I mean, african american. Or is he still interested in the african diaspora?

Olukemi Lijadu: I mean, I think if you’re interested in the african american story, by default you’re interested in the african diaspora. Exactly. But, yeah, he’s deeply interested in the african american experience. And so I think being able to engage with his archive and hopefully with him will just really enrich my research experience after that. Yeah, I’m really excited about it. I actually did sort of, what I say is like a sketch. Like, my equivalent of a sketch is like a dj set and film performance. And I recently did that in Paris.

Pearl Lam: Oh, wonderful.

Olukemi Lijadu: In an opera house, actually. It had 360 screens. So I edited a video that was played on the screen. Sort of looking at the similarities between the dance styles in traditional west african dance cultures and Chicago house dance music, there are actually a lot of really interesting parallels. So, like, weaving that footage together was really fun. And I did a DJ set, like, weaving the music together also at the same time. Thank you. So, yeah, that was my little sketch towards the research that I’ll be doing. Yes. And Pearl, I’m also very interested to ask you, how do you feel like chinese and african people can begin to have a dialogue between themselves and what do you think?

Pearl Lam: You know, China and Africa has very long relationships. In 1949, when China becomes communist and America decided that they would embargle China, so all the western countries did not do any trading with China. China only trading partners was the african countries. So at the time, when you are african, you come to China, they give you a five star hotel. If you’re white coming to China, you live, you go to bread and breakfast. It was quite funny. It’s only 1973 when Nixon arrived China, and then they live up the embargo. I think China only start trading, and having. I mean, trading with west is only starting with the late 1970s, after Mao Zedong passed away in 1976. So from. From end of seventies, after Mao Zedong passed away, then they start trading really a lot with the west. Then China again in 2000, reopened the african chinese relationship. So you see, there is a lot of chinese presence in Africa, so they have a lot of investment in Africa. But I was told, and I read news about it, there were Africans who doesn’t like Chinese because even if they built infrastructures, hospitals and all that, they were bringing their chinese workers rather than some using the african workers. So on the chinese side, the explanation to me was that language barrier and works ethics, because Chinese will work 24 hours a day on the very hot climate, and they will only go, I mean, only ask for holidays. And that working ethics, you can’t find in other nationalities. So I hope that with that, the Chinese and Africans will have a better understanding. But I’m sure that culturally, I think, you know, when you get deeper after trading, you want to learn about the culture. So that’s a great platform for the cultural exchanges.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yes, absolutely.

Pearl Lam: And actually, this time, during the Shanghai art fair, we are going to introduce some african artists. Actually, we did already last year in Baba Jindi, and then we are going to open his show in march in Shanghai.

Olukemi Lijadu: Oh, wow.

Pearl Lam: So it will be quite, quite. I think it will be refreshing. And there are so many different countries in Africa, so I need to visit.

Olukemi Lijadu: You need to visit them all before.

Pearl Lam: I can really understand. And, you know, the few days I spent in Lagos, I only scraped the very, very superficial, I mean, elements about Africa. But now I have employed an african curator. So hopefully I will learn little by little, because I was told by Nigeria, he said, Nigeria is very complicated. There’s so many tribes. I mean, you won’t know at all. So, because. Because, I mean, each tribe has a different culture.

Olukemi Lijadu: Distinct, distinct.

Pearl Lam: So just in Nigeria, you can spend your whole life.

Olukemi Lijadu: Yeah, you’ll spend your whole life.

Pearl Lam: So I’m figuring it out. Young african ladies and professionals. I’m hoping that you will teach me. So what is your next move? I mean, besides after making your sister and sister.

Olukemi Lijadu: Sister, I think my next move, I want to. I’ve been writing more, and I’d like to publish more of my writing to sort of. I see my films and music as a gateway for people to research and educate themselves about the continent and the diaspora. So getting more of my work as a writer published is something that’s in the works. And, you know, the amazing thing is, I feel like stories to tell just sort of appear to me. So as much as I can plan, I know that it will just come and unfold. Like, last time I was in Lagos, one of my grandmother’s friends had heard about my film, and so invited me to film him. And so there’s a community of old people in Lagos who are desperate for me to document their stories. Yes. That’s great.

Pearl Lam: Congratulations. I think that’s. That is fantastic. Thank you so much, Kmi.

Olukemi Lijadu: Thank you so much, Paul. I really appreciate speaking with you. Yes, love meeting.