Pearl Lam: Hello, everyone. Welcome to the Pearl Lam podcast. Today, I would I have the honor to interview John Lim. And, John, can you give the audience some brief about yourself?

John Lim: Hi. Hi, everyone. Thank you for having me. I’m John.

John Lim: I’m the founder and creative director of this humid house, and we’re a botanical design studio founded in Singapore. And, well, a lot of people ask, what is a botanical design studio? And very, very broadly, we work with plants and flowers across very many disciplines, and we work on everything from retail arrangements or even a small boutonniere to landscape design. So it’s a very broad use of living material across many disciplines.

Pearl Lam: So why is the name humid house?

John Lim: Well, I think that’s a very good question.

Pearl Lam: Because I’m scared of humidity. I run away.

John Lim: So am I. But you know what? You know what, Pearl? So I’m born in Singapore, and I was raised here, and this.

John Lim: It is a metaphor for being in Singapore, which is a giant human house. And I think what we try to do is I’m very frustrated by the heat here, but there’s a lot of flora that thrives in this heat. And so it’s a way of declaring it as kind of affectionately as a humid house. And we try to create beautiful things that are made from the flora of this climate and also inspired by that.

John Lim: So in a way, it’s a bit of a coping mechanism for being here.

Pearl Lam: Okay. When I read about you, you want to push out that you are singaporean. This is what singaporean art or your production. You’re representing Singapore.

Pearl Lam: How do you define singaporean?

John Lim: You know, the thing is, I don’t. I don’t. I think Singaporeans always ask themselves what it is to be singaporean, because we are a very young country, and I think everyone is, you know, even, like, second or third generation or even first generation. And so I think that definition is very loose.

John Lim: I think what we’re trying to focus on is kind of like a sense of place, of being here. And I think that’s a little bit more of an ambiguous definition. I know that being singaporean means being exposed to a lot of different cultural influences. I know that being singaporean means being.

John Lim: Having been through the school system, for example, I know that being singaporean means having this idea that you came from a very small country or a very small island and that there’s a big world out there.

Pearl Lam: For example, Singaporeans are very proud to be singaporean versus Hong Kong. We have really lack of, like, the spirit of singaporean spirit.

John Lim: Wow, that’s a very nice thing to say. I think maybe the Singaporeans you meet are very proud of being singaporean. I know Singaporeans are very proud of Singapore Airlines.

Pearl Lam: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. They love singaporean airlines. Nice.

Pearl Lam: Okay, so let’s talk about how you went to America. You study architecture.

John Lim: Yes.

Pearl Lam: You study architecture. Architecture takes seven years to do architecture. I mean, after seven years, you were working in architect firms firm in New York and in China as well.

John Lim: Beijing.

Pearl Lam: Well, in Beijing. So how and why as an architect, to. To become a forest? Because, you know, architecture takes you so long to even to get this license.

John Lim: Yes.

Pearl Lam: I mean, you are you. I mean, architect. I always. I wanted to study architecture, but I was forbidden by my parents.

Pearl Lam: And I always thought that architecture is fascinating because you have to run from e and m to structure and creating this living space. And especially with today’s technology, I mean, it is so much more interesting. But just to do flowers.

John Lim: Yes, 100%. I think you hit the nail off the head. I think it’s. I ran away from architecture because it took too long.

Pearl Lam: It is very, very long.

John Lim: Very long. The firms that I worked in, I was introduced to projects where the project folder was set up eight years ago, and I was like, wow, this is version 84, for example. I was just like, wow, this is not moving. And I think I was probably just by nature drawn to something that had a quicker turnover and actually working with flowers.

John Lim: It’s probably the quickest turnover. I have to say, though, that I think that I have absolutely no regrets. And I think I’m so thankful for my education in architecture, because what it does is that it teaches you to design at the largest scale. And I went to a fantastic architecture school, the Cooper Union in New York.

John Lim: And I remember very early on one of my professors saying that one of the proudest, one of the students he’s proudest of is an architect that went into architecture school but eventually designed a heart valve for a medical company. And that went on to win many patents. And he thought, like, wow, I think design is design, and I think architecture teaches you to design at the largest scale possible, and it gives you a kind of confidence. And what I do essentially every day with plants and flowers is still essentially design.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, but how did you. How did this transformation started?

John Lim: You know what? I’ve always liked plants and flowers, but in a very kind of, you know, my grandpa was, you know, loved growing things, and so I’ve always had a kind of fascination for it. But it wasn’t until my brother’s wedding that I was taking a break from work. I was just working in China for, like, about four years.

John Lim: Came back to Singapore, and he said, like, can you help me with my flowers? And I was like, okay, fine, I’ll do some research. I’ll help you out. And my brother grew up here, but my sister in law is from Florida, which is also very, very tropical, and they like food, and they didn’t, you know, like, in terms of flowers, they didn’t really have a kind of preference for them.

John Lim: And so I was like, oh, oh, okay. Like, let’s do something that kind of represents you and tells your story. So what about we use, like, crazy vegetables or, like, you know, all these things that are more meaningful to you? And so I drew up a very extensive brief that had vegetables and, like, you know, had weird instructions, and I gave them to florists here.

John Lim: And everybody, everyone thought I was a psycho, and no one wanted to do this project. So I was like, okay, no one’s going to do it. Let me try to do it myself. So I got together a whole bunch of friends, and we put it together, and it looked like a real diy, amateur hour situation.

John Lim: But I really enjoyed myself, and it was very meaningful for everyone. And I was like, hey, there’s something here that I would like to explore. And then from there, things happened very quickly. Another friend asked me to do something, and then I thought, actually, there’s something here that is a little bit deeper.

John Lim: I think it’s very strange. For example, at the time in Singapore, this was five, six years ago, no, 2014, that the predominant style was rustic, english, romantic. And for people who never grew up in that kind of scenario, it was very foreign and very strange that on your wedding day that you would decide to use roses, hydrangeas, and adopt this weird countryside style that does not speak to me. And so I thought, hey, actually, fundamentally, there’s, like, a way for plants and flowers to, like, give meaning to people’s important life events, I mean, births, marriages, deaths.

John Lim: Yeah.

Pearl Lam: And so you all of a sudden, you start a business in doing forestry or.

John Lim: Yeah. So things happen very quickly and very soon. I was asked to do a wedding for that, you know, that had six figure budget, and I was just like, wow, I don’t even have a company at this point. What do I do?

John Lim: So I. I think I put out ads in the classifieds. I assembled a team, and actually, a lot of people from that team are still with me today.

Pearl Lam: Amazing. You were telling me that you have a very good archive and you put a lot of pictures on the social media and that actually increase people awareness of your work. So let me know whether this, the social media did help you to grow your business.

John Lim: I think we wouldn’t be here if not for social media. I think that’s the power of social media in a way. It gave a platform for work to be seen, and that was kind of litmus test, if it sinks or swims. And we had a lot of very encouraging response right from the start, which told us that we were making things that caused a reaction or, like, spoke to people.

Pearl Lam: So every piece of work that you do, do you post?

John Lim: No, I would say that we probably post only about 30, 40% of the work that we do. Yeah. Some of it we can’t post because of NDAs.

Pearl Lam: I mean, it seems that social media does change a lot on the art world, because I saw a lot of young and young artists as well because of social media. The galleries actually went and got directly.

John Lim: Yes, yes.

Pearl Lam: And so your clients actually go through social media to pick you?

John Lim: Yes.

Pearl Lam: So now are you just doing business in Singapore or you’re going around the world?

John Lim: So we have an office in Paris as well.

Pearl Lam: When did you open your office in Paris?

John Lim: Two years ago.

Pearl Lam: Well, and how was it? Because Parisian, there’s a Singaporean, my God, look at that day. They’re so snobbish and arrogant. You have to prove yourself, you know?

John Lim: Absolutely, absolutely. I think one of the things that were very encouraging. So my ex head of design, now co creative director, she’s french, japanese, and she was an expat living in Singapore, and she was one of the first people that I ever hired on my team. And she had to go back to, well, she was going to go back to Paris eventually, and when she, a couple of years ago, broached the idea of, hey, why don’t we set up something in Paris?

John Lim: I love what I’m doing. Let’s continue doing this. I was like, what can we teach or like, what can we contribute to french people? Or, like, what the French are doing?

Pearl Lam: I mean, I never knew that Singapore actually has their own production of flowers and all that until the marina Bay sand opens. When you go to the tropical garden and then all of a sudden you see these flowers, does it inspire you? Is this why you started all these forestry flower arrangements?

John Lim: Oh, yes, absolutely. So I, you know, the thing is that there are a lot of flowers that grow in the tropics, but because Singapore is so green, like, not like it took me a while. I call this plant blindness when you see in another context and you’re like, wow, this is something. But you actually have a lot of this right in front of you.

John Lim: And because Singapore is so green and the national park sports does such a good job, that people are kind of inured or numb to their kind of visual environment. So it took me a long time, and because I was in the business, my eyes were suddenly open to observing all these things. Now, very interestingly, and this is how policy really kind of shapes a country, Singapore used to be one of the largest orchid exporters in the world.

Pearl Lam: Really? Orchid? Oh, I didn’t realize.

John Lim: But because it was such a high intensive industry, labor intensive industry, and very costly and space requiring industry, it actually has been defunded through the lack of incentives, et cetera. Whereas the government wanted you to, say, invest more in high intensity agriculture, for example, that’s hydroponic or vertical. There are very, very few orchid growers from that era left, and we try to support them as best as we can at this point.

Pearl Lam: I see that you have a lot of collection of ceramics. Do you combine ceramics for sale or are these for. Is your collection?

John Lim: So these are all part of our collection, and we use them in a lot of our clients homes, restaurants, and even in hotels. And they have the benefit of the vessels from our collection that we use. Yeah. And the reason why we have such a large collection is because I think that is a very important kind of cultural component in floristry, which I think flowers require vessels or water sources, and that’s why it was important for us to start this collection.

Pearl Lam: So you started this collection when? As soon as you open or.

John Lim: That’s a very good question. I have been a very avid buyer of stuff from flea markets around the world, and I think I had a little bit to start with, but then this gave me such a good excuse to.

Pearl Lam: To become a shopaholic, become a shopaholic.

John Lim: So I have had to travel with a big pelican case, an empty one and I just, you know, along all the work trips, I’ve learned to be a bit of a hoarder. Yeah.

Pearl Lam: When I read about you, you talk about lots about culture.

John Lim: Yes.

Pearl Lam: Yeah.

John Lim
Yes.

Pearl Lam: And you see that you want your flower arrangement, your forestry, to be very linked with your culture.

John Lim: Yes.

Pearl Lam: So how, you know, like, this one, how do you connect culture and forestry?

John Lim: I think it’s a very interesting question. I feel like. Yes. In the context of being in Singapore, everyone actually has a relationship with plants and flowers, whether they understand it or not, or they’re sensitized or aware of it or not.

John Lim: It could be even like, a smell. There is a. And I will always remember this. There is a tree called the devil’s tree.

John Lim: I love that.

Pearl Lam: Devil’s tree.

John Lim: Yeah. And it’s called. And when I grew up, at certain times of the year, there would be this smell in the air that I could never put a finger on, and very, very, like, maybe only about six or seven years ago. And that’s formed, like, a very important part of my brain chemistry, because, like, I.

John Lim: It’s. It’s. It’s. It’s such a beautiful, intoxicating smell, and I only knew what flower it came from, and it’s so strong that one tree in a neighborhood is enough to perfume the entire neighborhood.

Pearl Lam: Whoa.

John Lim: I want to bottle it. It’s such a rare, fleeting fragrance because, you know, like, maybe over three or four days when it blooms. But that. That is an essential part of my core memory.

John Lim: Everyone has a relationship with food, for example. Right. Or a taste memory of food or an idea of the food they grew up with. I think that the same kind of sophistication with talking about food is the same thing that we can bring to plants and flowers.

John Lim: And there’s such potential there for it to tell stories, actually, just to piggyback off a conversation that we had earlier off camera. And you talked about the cultural revolution, and you talked about the tradition of the literati in China, where there was a great, beautiful appreciation for plants and flowers, and that translated to, say, bird and flower painting. Tang dynasty.

Pearl Lam: Yeah. Because the chinese literatis, I mean, they. One of the most important thing about them is they love to live and connect it with nature. Taoism.

Pearl Lam: It’s all about Taoism connected with nature. And they usually, they will become. Their aspiration is to become government chinese mandarin.

John Lim: Yes.

Pearl Lam: And they usually get frustrated by the emperor, and then they will escape to the bamboo florist and start painting.

John Lim: Yes. Yes. So I actually read something that you had said before that really stuck with me. And that is that the literary were essentially cross disciplinary.

Pearl Lam: Yes, absolutely. They’re multi discipline.

John Lim: There was no actual formal designation of that, of them being an artist. No.

Pearl Lam: Because there’s the word core artist. Art actually is. Only came out in 19. Oh, 419.

Pearl Lam: Oh, five. Five. And there is no. I mean, in China, there’s nothing called art before then.

Pearl Lam: I mean, your chinese literati, they have to do calligraphy, music, bowls, arrows and architecture, painting, everything. You are supposedly multidisciplined because we believe that the culture itself has to be influenced in a multidisciplined way.

John Lim: Absolutely. And so in that way, when they use or admire plants and flowers, it literally was an art form. Right. And so I think there wasn’t that definition of when, you know, art begins like, it was an appreciation that was essentially elevating that appreciation to an art form where be it through a painting of landscape or actually bringing flowers into the home.

Pearl Lam: So actually, you are adopting the really chinese literati way of interpretating.

John Lim: Absolutely.

Pearl Lam: Because when we talk about the west, then it’s absolutely different because west has a hierarchy of art form.

John Lim: Yes.

Pearl Lam: So you fine art over design and over decoration. So it’s completely two different things. For years, people have been fighting, I think now is there, about cross discipline and multidisciplinary, and there should not be a segregation of art and design and there should not be any discrimination.

John Lim: Absolutely.

Pearl Lam: There was intellectually, they were fighting for decades.

John Lim: Yeah. I have to show you something. 1 second, I’m going to show you something. So I have this.

John Lim: This is a gold thread embroidery of. This is. We just sit down here. So this is gold thread embroidery.

John Lim: Yeah, this is, I think, probably set an altar. And I think this really encapsulates the spirit of what we were doing. I got this antique from. I can’t remember where, but you see the beautiful kind of vessels and all the symbolism.

John Lim: For example, you know, there are like these bats, for example.

Pearl Lam: Yeah. Bats means prosperity.

John Lim: Prosperity. And it also has a lot of, like, very interesting fruit, like the Buddha. Buddha hen fruit.

Pearl Lam: Yeah. And I think all the auspicious, you.

John Lim: Know what I think symbols, you know, and also this is probably a magnolia flower, for example, which, you know, symbolizes springtime and rejuvenation. So I think this, for me, is very meaningful because, like, you know, this was a kind of a very, very early, a reverence for the natural world and also culture. And I think it encapsulates the spirit of what we try to do here.

Pearl Lam: Actually, I like the way that you’re talking about the chinese literary art. But actually, you studied Bauhaus. Yes, Bauhaus was the same. It’s just that when they arrived in America, everything changed about the hierarchy.

Pearl Lam: Does this Bauhaus idea also influence the way that you connect with your creation?

John Lim: Well, I think the Bauhaus had a very complex point of view, and I think what was very helpful, what’s helpful about that is actually the clarity of what they’re trying to express.

Pearl Lam: Yeah. Because what I see in you is Bauhaus Lingq ingrained with chinese culture. That’s how I see it.

John Lim: That’s a wonderful.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, because I think that what you are doing is actually, this is like the multidisciplinary, what Bauhaus has been preaching and teaching. But. But there you find that your culture, and you want to bring your culture back to interpret in whatever you are, you are creating.

John Lim: Yeah, yeah. Well, I’ve never heard of that perspective before, but that’s kind of refreshing to think about. And certainly. Yeah, yeah.

Pearl Lam: Because you study architecture, you have to be. Be influenced by Bauhaus. Even if you don’t consciously think about it, it must be at the back of your mind.

John Lim: Absolutely, absolutely.

Pearl Lam: And to do things, whatever you’re doing is actually a Bauhaus approach rather than the chinese literati approach. Because I think chinese literati is so. Is so old, so tradition. Maybe we don’t connect with it, but your Bauhaus approaches definitely connected.

John Lim: That’s a very flattering.

Pearl Lam: Yeah. And then you’re looking into, of course, because you’re chinese, you want to look about chinese culture and how this influence your flower arrangement.

John Lim: I have to say that because we’re also in Paris, I think what has been very helpful is that we also look at other floral traditions around the world. I mean, Constance Brie in London, for example, or the UK, she’s been so influential for kind of bringing in a kind of naturalism. And if you look at french floral design, for example, there was this idea of a projection of power, right? Yes.

Pearl Lam: Because french, you see, french garden, they are very contrived. Very contrived. Everything has been cut in a certain shape. It shows power.

Pearl Lam: But if you look at Trocadero as well, you look at that, it looks like a fascist beauty, you know? Absolutely. You know, it’s that power thing that you’re talking about. And of course, I mean, english garden is beautiful because it’s about free fall.

John Lim: Yes, yes.

Pearl Lam: Is that natural going into rose garden walking? Because english countryside is beautiful because of this free fall.

John Lim: Yes, yes, yes. And I love that this is such a bold expression of it in gardens, which you don’t get culturally and even in their food.

Pearl Lam: No, but how do you bring all that into doing table decoration or decorating the whole wedding venue? How do you bring all that?

John Lim: That’s a very good question. And I think it really comes to understanding plants and flowers as just being signifiers.

Pearl Lam: So you really love plants and flowers.

John Lim: Yeah, they’re just signifiers, and I think. And they’re signifiers, and with enough elements of it and composed in a way, it paints a picture of maybe a narrative or story or it gives a sense of place. So understand the inherent power of the symbols of these objects from, you know, various cultures or various disciplines. It gives you a kind of latitude to express something.

Pearl Lam: When you were in Paris. How do they see how you recreate? I mean, flowers, forestry, and how do. I mean, do they get what you’re doing?

John Lim: I think some people do. I think some people do. I think we, you know, I think since we’ve been in Paris, there have been a lot of people who’ve reached out to us because they find an affinity with it and they find themselves seen in it, in a way. Right.

John Lim: And I think that’s the most powerful thing, where you’re able to create something that people identify with and speak to them. Yeah. So, yes, they’ve. They’ve come out of the woodwork, and I think there’s the whole revolution in floristry.

Pearl Lam: Thank you. Singapore must be celebrating you because you are one of a kind. There’s nothing. I mean, really, there’s nothing like this out from, and from Singapore.

Pearl Lam: I never seen. I never, never know of Singapore being a very creative. You have a very creative industry. I always fought that because the education system.

Pearl Lam: The education system is high, but the education system is not encouraging you to be innovative or being creative, even though you have design school that push you to be great, but creative and innovation could not be pushed. So how are you seeing you coming out from this system and you have achieved being innovative and creative? What will you say to the other kids who are studying and. And do they have dreams?

Pearl Lam: Because vision and dreams are very important and also to have courage to execute it.

John Lim: Yes. Well, I was very lucky to be able to get out. Right. And see more.

John Lim: And I. And that. That’s, I think what, what I would encourage everyone to try to do.

Pearl Lam: Are you inspired by any artist? When you create anything, when you create.

John Lim: Your piece, it’s interesting, but, like, I like, you know, I get that question a lot. Where do you get my inspiration from. And actually, like, I. I’m very much.

John Lim: I’m very much it. Like, I think for me, personally, and actually, this is a question that I wanted to ask you, is what art are you kind of. What art are you most drawn to? Like, personally, that really, like, you know, almost.

Pearl Lam: My mother always explained to her friends, whatever we don’t understand, this is what pearl likes. Whatever this messy, chaotic take and whatever we don’t, we don’t understand, this is exactly what you would go after.

John Lim: And, you know, that has a kind of origin story. In your childhood, you almost either wanted to the opposite of what people wanted because you. Maybe you wanted something different.

Pearl Lam: Because wherever I look at things.

John Lim: Yeah.

Pearl Lam: I mean, I don’t. When I. When I. When I look at a painting, you know, it’s there.

Pearl Lam: I don’t like it. I don’t. I like it. I.

Pearl Lam: You know, I asked. I actually tell my clients, okay, when. Before you collect ad. You do research.

Pearl Lam: I don’t do anything.

John Lim: Yeah.

Pearl Lam: I mean, I just buy what I want.

John Lim: Yeah.

Pearl Lam: Want, if I can afford it. Just, you know, I collect.

John Lim: Yeah.

Pearl Lam: I don’t see it as a. As a. As an investment. I don’t see it as anything.

Pearl Lam: I just. But don’t necessarily is anything that anybody would want to. But eventually, I think I change people’s perception.

John Lim: Exactly. Me, I think I’m most inspired by, actually, things that are not contrived. So, for example. Yes, for certain nature.

John Lim: Certainly nature. When you go out to a rainforest, for example, it’s so uncomfortable. Literally, you go in there and you’re attacked by mosquitoes in five minutes. Going to a rainforest is very different from going to a temperate forest.

John Lim: It’s very uncomfortable. But within there, you can see, oh, there’s a kind of feverishness us in how things are overgrown and how things are entangled and how things. And so, like, I get inspiration from looking at trash and even, like, rubbish, for example, where, like, you know, it’s uncultivated. Absolutely.

John Lim: The forms. And because of that, like, I. You know, like, even with art, I was, in my formative years, very, very much invested in abstract expressionists. And, like, saituan, I love abstract because, like, you know, there was a kind of, like, freedom with the mark making, and I.

John Lim: And I think I kind of applied that kind of, like, almost like, let’s conduct an experiment and just let’s see what happens. Kind of approach to what we do with flowers. And I think that that’s exciting.

Pearl Lam: Which period of architecture do you like?

John Lim: You know, I was, in some ways, a very fierce modernist.

Pearl Lam: Oh, really?

John Lim: When I first started, I think I really, you know, I see this picture as a way to control the environment. And I think I, you know, when I, you know, like, in terms of where I was in my life at that point, that was a very helpful kind of soothing mechanism for control. Right. But as I grew older and, like, you know, I really actually now have a deep appreciation for history and very, very old things.

John Lim: And, you know, like I used to, you know, like at the Met, for example, I used to, like, walk past all the medieval galleries because it was.

Pearl Lam: Nothing up to now I’m like this. I walked through all the many medieval.

John Lim; Absolutely. But now I’m just fascinated by, like, like, even silversmithing and craft and all of those things. So, like, I don’t know, one of the things that I think is really important, and I think, like, actually, I even want to say this to architects. So many architects are so afraid of color.

John Lim: Petrified of color.

Pearl Lam: That is modernist.

John Lim: Not, not actually the real modernists in corbusier and, you know, kabusia, we only.

Pearl Lam: Have white and white and black, even grey.

John Lim: If you look at Chandigarh and, like, all the beautiful colors, like he was, it was so brilliant, like, and I’ll show you pictures after this. And for some reason, like, you know, with this idea of whiteness or whatever, like, it got, it kind of disappeared. And I think the world of flowers and color for me was so important, is opening up an emotional, I think, modernism.

Pearl Lam: We have to understand that modernism is a reaction.

John Lim: Yes.

Pearl Lam: Of, and of the 19th century.

John Lim: Excess.

Pearl Lam: Yeah. Excess and the ornaments of the building. Everything is a reaction. I mean, when it comes to too many of this high rise steel building, we want colors, we want warmth, we want something different.

John Lim: Yes, yes, yes. Absolutely. Yeah. I think that’s a, that’s a fascinating perspective.

John Lim: And things go in cycles, right? So you have, you have the ornamentation and now you have, you know, this. But then with computer design, for example, things are becoming almost mannerist, baroque again.

Pearl Lam: Absolutely. How does your home looks like? How many are you decorated, surrounding yourself with rocks, flowers, ceramics?

John Lim: No. You’d be surprised. I live in a kind of aesthetic way at home, there are no flowers, there are no plants, because I think minimalist. I need clarity and order at home.

John Lim: Yeah. When life is already chaotic enough. Yeah.

Pearl Lam: Let’s talk about these asian artists. Do they actually need to talk about Asia to have this Asia culture in order to communicate with and with the west, to make that, to make them significant? Do they need it? I mean, for me, it’s very different from you because we are talking about, you know, when you talk about contemporary art, we’re talking about conceptual art.

Pearl Lam: Conceptual art is about politics, society, philosophy. How many artists have been criticizing China immediately they are worshipped by the west.

John Lim: It’s almost like bait.

Pearl Lam: And in China, you cannot use art to talk about politics, religion, or sex. So obviously they’re not talking about that. When we talk about philosophy, are we talking about Taoism philosophy or are we talking about Klein?

John Lim: Yes.

Pearl Lam: So all these are, I mean, I always say that art is a platform that, that allowed us to have a cultural exchange.

John Lim: Yes.

Pearl Lam: And depending on how we push forward about that. So what it means for you, what are, how are you going to bring all this culture into your creation of plant?

John Lim: I think, I think there’s a way to do it that is unexpected. I think that’s really important for me, that it’s not lazy. You can’t say that, oh, my gosh, asian flavor is just because I put soy sauce in something. I think there is a very kind of interesting way, and there needs to be an understanding of the pulse of society, for example, where, you know, okay, it’s just like, I’m gonna.

John Lim: And I love talking about food because I think that I’m foodie. I love food. And I think that’s a very kind of accessible way of understanding things. Like, you know, you put a bit of preserved lemon in something, and suddenly you’re like, in North Africa, for example.

John Lim: And I think you have that same power with plants and flowers. Like, you know, like, you know, like with, with. And even with kind of almost like biomimicry. Right.

John Lim: So we put together different elements. Like, oh, the leaf can be from somewhere, but the flower itself, and you have the fruit of somewhere, but you can be very playful in addressing, oh, this is like how it looks like in nature, but we’re kind of subverting that a little bit. And then we introduce a bit of a cultural element or something that feels foreign, but, you know, like, or something like that. And together, compositionally, you get something that’s a very sophisticated kind of expression of what you’re trying to say.

John Lim: And I think, you know, I think there definitely is that culture element there in a way that’s not to talk.

Pearl Lam: Talk culture, talk Asia in order to make yourself to be competitive in a traditional.

John Lim: No, I feel like the beauty of this is that people get it immediately if they identify with it. And that’s how it’s different because you’re.

Pearl Lam: Talking, we’re talking about aesthetic?

John Lim: Yes. Yes.

Pearl Lam: Okay. So it’s very different from the art world. Art world. We’re not so much talking about aesthetic.

Pearl Lam: We’re talking about intellect as well.

John Lim: Ideas.

Pearl Lam: Ideas and intellect and all that. But aesthetic is much easier to understand or embrace. You can reject it, but when you look, you want something different, you want something new, you want something exciting.

John Lim: I think that. But it’s a real ability for plants and Mars to do the same thing. For example, we did this art installation at the Esplanade, and it was commission piece, and it was in their big hall. And what we did was, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with sarong rockers in Asia.

John Lim: There’s this spring mechanism, and with a sarong, and they put babies in there, and the thing would just rock, and it would lull babies to sleep. And I’ve always found that mechanism to be very, very disturbing, because it’s like, wow, my precious child is now put in this very kind of mechanical situation, and it’s just subject to, not their volition. And so what we did was we got the most massive palm leaves that we could, and we had, like, hundreds of sarong rockers in the space, and we attached a leaf to them, and every ten minutes, we would, like, activate it, and it would just go up and down and up and down and up and down and bounce. Right.

John Lim: And I think the very subtle messaging in that was, like, I think there is a kind of infantilization that happens when you’re basically subject to policy, for example. And I think there was an element of that installation that was a little bit institutional in its critique, but done in a very soft way. And I think, you know, plants and flowers and even food has this very soft power.

Pearl Lam: Yes.

John Lim: And so I think, you know, I think it was a very effective medium to get a message.

Pearl Lam: Yes. Intimidating.

John Lim: Yes. In Singapore, we like to call it orchid diplomacy.

Pearl Lam: Orchid diplomacy. I love it. Joanna, such a nice time spending time with you. I’m dying to see your workshop, to see some of your work.

Pearl Lam: I know you have no work to show me, but. But I’ve been enjoying looking at your. And all your ceramics, and especially those. Those are very strange shaped vases, which I love.

Pearl Lam: Thank you so much.

John Lim: Thank you so much for having me.

Pearl Lam: Thank you.

John Lim: Thank you.