Pearl Lam: Welcome to the Pearl Lam Podcast. Before I begin, I would like to thank you all for the comments you made in my podcast. And actually, I do read the comments. And please do not forget to subscribe to the Pearl Lam Podcast. Now, I want to introduce my very dear friend and also a wonderful journalist, curator Judith Benhamou. And let her introduce herself and then we can talk more about what she’s doing.

Judith Benhamou: Bonjour, Pearl. So I’m a curator, I’m a journalist, I’m an art critic, I’m a traveller, I’m a mom, I’m French. What can I say? I have a column in Les Echoes, which is like FT in France for 32 years. But I’m not old. I began very early.

Pearl Lam: Ten years old.

Judith Benhamou: Exactly. And I created seven years ago, a platform, a blog with a YouTube channel and Instagram and all that dedicated to art and art market.

Pearl Lam: And everyone follows you, from museum directors to avid collectors. They all love your blog.

Judith Benhamou: Exactly. I hope so. And in fact, I’ve influential, very influential, very influential all over the world. The first reader are in New York, in fact, which is quite surprising. So I became global in a way. And my life is very interesting because of that.

Pearl Lam: So today I’m taking Judith here to talk about French culture. From the first day, I know about France. Even in Hong Kong, they only talk about French culture. What is French culture?

Judith Benhamou: I think French culture is about not being shallow. The problem today is in this big society, global society of consumption, people consume, consume, consume, and they are so shallow. But if you want to feel, don’t.

Pearl Lam: You think that the word shallow is a bit pretentious? I don’t mind to be shallow.

Judith Benhamou: Yeah, I don’t mind to be pretentious. Shallow is about being on the surface of everything. And if we want to have pleasure, if we want to blossom, we need to go in depth. And I was thinking about this question of French culture and the fact that I am working in France, even if my audience is global is because it allows me to go in depth to understand the artistry. For example, I like the idea of being really dedicated to contemporary art, but to understand contemporary art and how can be pertinent contemporary art, you need to know about artistry. This is not being shy,

Pearl Lam: But also about contemporary life as well. Right? Your French contemporary life.

Judith Benhamou: Yes. And you know, for a while France was a bit an old country, but now Paris became a really international platform. And that’s what’s fascinating, and that’s why we are lucky.

Pearl Lam: What’s fascinating about you know, because we talk about French culture is no countries in the world would just say that, you know, for France, we market French culture, French culture, French culture. And then next thing I learned is Comiti Colbert. Okay, French culture, Comiti Colbert. So what in the. I mean, like in. I always say that now China is going through a French. You know, first China was American, and now they want to be French. So what do you mean by being French there? Do you know? French culture does it mean food, does it mean fashion, does it mean art? What does a French person think about French culture?

Judith Benhamou: I read a book about French artistry, and the guy was a specialist of 18th century art. And he began saying that, for example, the wood maker of all the. Of the king, Louis XIV, 1516, they were all foreigners and they became French. What is interesting about France is the ability of swallowing and giving back swallowing talents in a good way and giving back a mixture of creativity. And that’s what I like. I was thinking about this French culture notion, and what’s interesting is the capacity of France of attracting talent. I give you an example. I thought about my schedule in the few last days. For example, I began on Friday going to Beyeler Foundation, which is in Basel, at the frontier between France, Germany and Swiss. I went there on Friday and I interview canadian photographer, artist called Jeff Walsh, of course, in the seventies. Let’s speak to our listener in the seventies. He invented a special system to create a light box to make a new kind of photography, which is between painting and cinema, but still cinema. So I interviewed this guy and it was extraordinary. We spoke about his best friend, Rodney Graham, who also lived in Vancouver and was also a photographer, artiste, etcetera, who died last year. And I interview Rodney Graham a few years ago in Dijon, in contemporary art centre. So this was my experience. On Friday. On Sunday I went to Saint Paul de Vence. And in Saint Paul de Vence in south of France, near Nice, there’s a foundation, one of the most famous foundation in the world is called Fondation Mart. And they have one of the best collection of modern art with Giacometti, with Miro and many other artists. And there, there was a fashion show. I was invited to this fashion show organised by Jacquemus with a young designer. In fact, he was born in the same city of south of France as me, Salon Provence, that no one knows. And I was the only art critic invited there for the fashion show in Fondation Marguerite by Jacques Muse. And it was extraordinary. And there I met some young influencers, like 25, 28. We had so much fun. And they were not shallow at all. They were extremely creative, not the same culture as me. And, you know, they have african origins and they are extraordinary. I had my best time with them and the fashion show was amazing because there was a dialogue between Jacometis culture and his fashion show of Jacquemus is a very talented fashion designer. I came back and on Tuesday morning I went to interview Bijois Jain with an architect who is having a show now at Fondation Cartier in Paris. And the Fondation Cartier, the building is designed by Jean Nouvel, the famous priscal price architect. And Bichon Jain invented not an architecture, but a feeling. When you go there, you feel so good. He has a very special proposal and we spoke together about Mumbai, about his childhood with hippies, communists, doctors, philosophers all around, classical indian dancers all around him. And so what I want to say is, between Friday and Tuesday, I went to Canada, I went to Swiss, I went to Mumbai and with Jacquemus Swiss again, and with Jacquemus to the world and with the young african origin influencer to Africa, in a way, and all that together, all this density, all this culture, it’s France. That’s what’s interesting about France now. And because people are open minded and not shallow.

Pearl Lam: So you are talking about multicultural. You are saying that now France is a multicultural world because, I mean, the.

Judith Benhamou: World of culture in France is like that. It’s not all the world, because all the world in France, all the mind, because there’s, you know, also narrow minded people. But I think culture in France is. People of culture in France are very curious and that’s what we need in life. You know, I’m doing my job, but don’t you? But don’t you.

Pearl Lam: But let’s go back to talk about. Because what is interesting is when France wants to promote themselves, they will go out to talk about the French culture, I think, starting with Jacqueline. I mean, during the Minnesota…

Judith Benhamou: Was a big ambassador.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, he was a big ambassador. So actually, all of a sudden, the whole world is focusing in French culture. They look at it. No, they look at it, okay. Because, you know, when you go to China, the French culture is all the haute couture, the food, the jewelries. Right? So I think the French culture, from very beginning, when Jacqueline was promoting it, it was for trading for business, rather than talking about French culture as itself. And now you’re telling us about, you know, what is really happening here, what is the real culture here?

Judith Benhamou: But I have to confess something. Most of the people in the culture business are starving. So it’s glamorous. But at the same time, you don’t make your living from this culture, but you are fed, you have some privilege, you have some power.

Pearl Lam: But isn’t that in the social level in France, especially when you are in culture, when you are an artist, you are in a much higher ranking than if you are as a banker.

Judith Benhamou: No, I’m not sure. It’s just a parallel world where you have less money, privilege, but you decide at the beginning of your life that you will not make a lot of money. Probably you will not have the most fancy shoes, and I’m very sensitive to shoes, but you will not have a big house, but you will be able to blossom. I remember once my daughter, you know, when you have a kid, you dream of your kid to feel completely secure. Is that your priority? And once my daughter told me, oh, don’t imagine I will be a banker once. So it was very clear. Now she’s a teacher of architecture, you know, in America. Yeah, not in France. In America, we don’t know why. But the thing is that America pays much more. Yes. And American university are really excellent, for sure. But the thing is that you need to decide that you will not be privileged in terms of money. If you want to be really involved in culture, that’s it.

Pearl Lam: But in France and in general, people doesn’t look at money as the most important thing because they rather to have holidays. Right?

Judith Benhamou: Not only holidays, but, you know, it makes me.

Pearl Lam: They rather have other things.

Judith Benhamou: It makes me think about something. I have a friend who is American, a very wealthy banker, and it took him a while to understand why my priority was not to make money. And slowly he understood I had some kind of power. I was going to good places. I was sophisticated without money. For him, it was very difficult to understand. That’s really another state of mind. Do you want to make a priority of making money, or do you want your brain to work in a good way.

Pearl Lam: What do you think about this Americanization of culture? You know, American culture, from food, from Hollywood, has infiltrated the whole world. How about France? What do you think about it?

Judith Benhamou: American culture really works very, very good. Very much in France, too. The problem is, I don’t know, everywhere. Exactly. That’s a real problem, because in America you see a lot of very fat people overweight, and it’s coming to France, for example, in America, I love yoghurt, for example, I love yoghurt. Yes. If you want to buy a yoghurt, you see so many additive in the yoghurt. In America, you can’t find something plain. It’s terrible. That’s a real problem. And so it create army of people who are sick and overweight. And that’s really scary. I hope this will not happen in France, but we are going slowly on this way, that’s for sure.

Pearl Lam: And how about beside food? What else? What else has Americanized the French culture?

Judith Benhamou: You know, I think in France they have created some. Some protection, for example, still, the French cinema is powerful.

Pearl Lam: Yes, the French cinema is very powerful. And it’s very different way of. And of direction as well.

Judith Benhamou: But there’s also good things about America. For example, there’s some kind of pop culture, American pop culture, which is cool, I think.

Pearl Lam: American pop culture and music influence.

Judith Benhamou: Exactly. And also, what can I say? Yeah, I think there’s part of it.

Pearl Lam: How about Emily in Paris?

Judith Benhamou: But if you are tired and you are watching tv in your bed by night, it’s very cool. I feel a bit uncomfortable about the way she’s dressed, which is not French. French.

Pearl Lam: Not that French at all.

Judith Benhamou: Very American. I don’t like the notion of bad tests, because there’s no tests you can. That’s just fashion. But she has a very strange way of being dressed.

Pearl Lam: That is. That is the stylist, right? It must be. I mean, it must be, because if you are in France, if you see how and how the French are, you don’t dress like that.

Judith Benhamou: No, not for sure. For sure. Nothing. But, you know, for example, I was going to this cafe since I was student, since I was 19, I was going to this cafe called Cafe de Flore.

Pearl Lam: I know.

Judith Benhamou: And there’s an episode at Cafe de Flore of Emily in Paris, so you can’t go there anymore. And they all have this special art, you know, the red beret and all this lady from all over the world come, like you go to. To a religious place in pilgrimage with your special red hat. And they go there, they want to feel like a million palace.

Pearl Lam: And so what other impact does. But this is. How does it impact in French culture or the French, you know, Paris because they see where, where Emily goes. So they went.

Judith Benhamou: Yeah, exactly. No, but it’s. Emily is a privileged young lady, so they show very privileged sight, you know, so I have no problem with that. In fact, she, she has some grace and she’s very free. She has sex with everyone as, as it is supposed to be like that in France, you know. Yeah, but sometimes she’s a bit shallow again and pretentious again. No, but I think it’s a, it’s a cool show. In fact, I wrote an article and I titled it the Emily in Paris effect in the art market, because.

Pearl Lam: Oh, yeah, what is the effect on the art market?

Judith Benhamou: I love it because, you know, the main fair in the world and Basel has decided to settle down in Paris. So everyone, all the gallery are coming to Paris.

Pearl Lam: That’s why, of course, because Paris has so much more things to do than Basel and the food is so much better.

Judith Benhamou: That’s for sure too.

Pearl Lam: And there’s so many, I mean, so much shopping to go around.

Judith Benhamou: Right, exactly. So there’s a kind of Emily Paris effect in the art market. You know, auser and veers, for example, opened recently, last October in Paris. They have a huge place and so it keeps on and keeps on like that. And so it becomes global. There’s a danger of this globality in Paris that it. Paris could lose its soul for sure.

Pearl Lam: Okay, so this is a very confusing thing because Paris wanted to be the top city. So obviously you have a lot of tourists coming in because it increased the France, you know, the tourism contribute to the GDP, but at the same time, Paris or the French want to protect its own culture.

Judith Benhamou: Yes.

Pearl Lam: So it’s a compromise. So that’s why we always feel that when we come to Paris, the French, the Parisian do not like us. The Parisian is horrible to visitors, I tell you, and to the tourists. Is that reason why you love us, but you don’t like us? You love bit of us, but you resent.

Judith Benhamou: Yes, but I’m not really a good example because I’m travelling all over the world.

Pearl Lam: I know, but in general, of course, you know.

Judith Benhamou: Yeah, now people are mean, you know, for example, me, I go to certain cafe and restaurant on purpose because in other places they really treat you badly. I hate them. They are rude. They are rude to anything.

Pearl Lam: Oh, even French would say I love it.

Judith Benhamou: They simply extremely rude. Yeah. What can we do?

Pearl Lam: So. But this is not just the Emily in Paris syndrome. Right. This was just the Emily impressed, brought attention to Paris. And then when people come there, they want to visit the same place, all the same place. But that is not really a huge impact in the French life.

Judith Benhamou: Yes. There is an issue now, because if you have so many tourists, they need to find rooms. So there’s more and more Airbnb, which means to rent a house. Not a house, a flat. Now, in Paris, it’s really difficult, you know, so it’s very expensive. So all the not wealthy people, regular people, need to go outside of the city. Yes, that’s a problem. So it will make the city less authentic. Like, for example, in Venice. Now you have less and less Venetian, you know.

Pearl Lam: Yes, I know.

Judith Benhamou: So in Paris, it becoming like that, like a big museum. Pearl, what is really the perception of France in Asia and above all, in China now?

Pearl Lam: French culture. French culture. French culture. I think your ambassador or your consulate general or your cultural attache in all these countries has done a fantastic job. Like in Hong Kong, you have a French may. I mean, you. For one month he was just promoting French culture, and then now you have a French year in China. So a lot of. I mean, a lot of exchanges. China is bringing the Chinese culture here. French is doing a French culture there. And I think your government knows how to use culture to do the exchange of building friendship and all that. If you go to Japan, Japan, literally, I mean, everything they adopt, they adopt. I mean, I think Japan has better Mont Blanc.

Judith Benhamou: Exactly. Than the pâtissiers in Kyoto.

Pearl Lam: Exactly.

Judith Benhamou: Are better than in Paris.

Pearl Lam: Much better than in Paris.

Judith Benhamou: Much better. Pâtissiers is a serious matter.

Pearl Lam: And the Rou is better than here. I mean, most of the food and cuisine there is better than. I think Japan knows how to adopt it and make it better. I mean, this is. And if you. If you. If you see all the. I mean, all these Japanese girls. Girls, their dream is to visit Paris. They will save up and come and visit Paris.

Judith Benhamou: True.

Pearl Lam: Paris. But at the same time, I think Japan. I mean, China as well.

Judith Benhamou: China.

Pearl Lam: Do you know how many Chinese coming to the Hout couture show? I think now the Hout couture… I think partly supported by the Chinese.

Judith Benhamou: There’s a lot of hipsters in the, Chinese hipster in the French street. In street in Paris.

Pearl Lam: I think France has done so much to promote the culture in fashion, designer brands opening everywhere. Right? And food, it’s amazing.

Judith Benhamou: True.

Pearl Lam: I mean, I remember at that time, a long time ago. I don’t know whether the Comiti Colbert still do it, but Comiti Colbert also do a lot of exhibition promoting, you know, like all the brands

Judith Benhamou: Comiti Colbert, madame.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, Comiti Colbert

Judith Benhamou: Colbert, Colbert. And in fact, what is really interesting is that French people don’t really realise this soft power they have. They always criticise. Culture is about debating, fighting all the time and criticising everyone. It’s horrible.

Pearl Lam: I mean, it’s so nice to hear a French saying all that. If I say that, people will be attacking me. But it’s true. But it’s true. But what are you going to do to make them realise that France is so powerful? The French culture is the most powerful thing because with this soft power, you can do a lot of. You can promote French, you can promote trade and you can do exchanges, but.

Judith Benhamou: It’S French that they are self destructive. You know, there’s this paradox about, I think French people don’t travel enough, so they don’t realise how good is life in France. You know.

Pearl Lam: You know, the funniest thing is when you talk about people criticise or complain is I always say that whenever I go to. To a French dinner with a French host. Host hosting the dinner, everything I learn about politics is by the main cause. First advertiser people will be trying to get polite by the main cause. I learned everything about the French politics during dinner because everybody will be complaining. No one is happy.

Judith Benhamou: You know, I really. Sometimes I think, how were they able to create the Eiffel Tower? There was probably so much, so much opposition to this project. Always when you want to change something, there’s some opposition. And if you notice it, each president of the French Republic want to give something to the country, for example, because.

Pearl Lam: They want to create a legacy.

Judith Benhamou: Of course, Mitterand created the Pyramid du Louvre, and Chirac created musee du quai Branly…

Pearl Lam: Yeah.

Judith Benhamou: And each of them tried to make something, you know, it’s very interesting. So in a way, power is really linked to culture in France.

Pearl Lam: Absolutely. Especially in France, you always. All the president, I mean, all the prime ministers, that they want to have a legacy. And the legacy is always evolved with culture. I mean, Mitterrand actually made the minister of culture to be the speaker of parliament. Unheard of

Judith Benhamou: Yeah. And you know, Macron, there’s something amazing about Macron. President, I want to interview you. Remember you said you would accept. I hope he’s listening to his podcast. So Macron, when he goes in foreign countries, he meet artists who does that. So, for example, he went to India and he met Subodh Gupta. He went to his studio. So I went to Subodh and I said, oh, what’s going on? What did he say to you? He said, you know, first, all my friends came to my studio because we never have any politician meeting artists in our country.

Pearl Lam: This is how nice. This is the strongest way to tell everyone one is. Culture is so important.

Judith Benhamou: And so Macron makes things like that which are very surprising. For example, there’s a big place for great people of France called Le Pentheon in Paris. So it’s like a big cemetery of the greatest people. And there he asks Anselm Kiefer, a German artist living in France, to create a group of frescoes for the inside the building. So this is.

Pearl Lam: He has chosen the right artist.

Judith Benhamou: Actually, this is crazy. He choose a German artist who doesn’t want to live in Germany, living in France.

Pearl Lam: I’m sorry. Art is not about passport either. You’re good artists. Are not good artists.

Judith Benhamou: The symbol is so strong. Is that also that you are accept that your former enemy is now really your friend. But this is a vision of history. It’s great.

Pearl Lam: I think what can Asian country learn from France? I mean, Asian. I think Asia, many Asian countries, we need to still find who we are and what we represent. And let’s talk about China. I think. I think at this very moment, China, the propaganda machine is to make people very proud of China being very nationalistic. But I think what makes the world respect China is the ancient chinese culture. The ancient Chinese, how they behave and how the self culture, self cultivation and all that. I think all that is lost. So until the time that we know how an ancient chinese or contemporary Chinese is. So it’s hard how to even promote this, even though there were a lot of Confucius institute the chinese government built.

Judith Benhamou: But I remember that on the early nineties, you were collecting all furniture.

Pearl Lam: Yeah, I love it. Yes, I love all my Shanghai Deco furniture.

Judith Benhamou: You began early on to collect?

Pearl Lam: Yeah, I began early on to collect because I thought it was really the time of creativity. Because when you talk about Deco coming into China, when they don’t understand, they never even seen what art Deco is. And they use the Chinese. Chinese making furniture techniques without nails and then fascinating to make this and then with some Chinese motive.

Judith Benhamou: But we can also speak about something very controversial, which is the loot of the summer palace by French.

Pearl Lam: No, French is one of them. French loot. And England, yeah, the allies is fair.

Judith Benhamou: To speak about it too. You know, at auction, from time to time one sees some imperial.

Pearl Lam: I think. I think at this present moment, I mean, when you say about the 19th century, you know, the loot of the summer park, the loot of the desert palace is not exactly. I think they rebuilt the summer. It is the summer. The loot of summer palace. You can see a lot of things at the gimme museum and on the British Museum. So if we have to go to the past, I think all these museum has to give back everything, especially the British Museum from the Egypt. I mean, every single country. No, because remember, Britain at the time rules. British Empire rules the world. So every country they loot.

Judith Benhamou: Yeah.

Pearl Lam: I mean, we have to go back. My God. No more British Museum and no more.

Judith Benhamou: No more Vietnamese or Cambodian art

Pearl Lam: Oh, exactly. So I don’t know whether one should go back and talk about that and try to get back. And get back all these.

Judith Benhamou: No, but treasures. Now things are coming at auction too, which is another story than the museum.

Pearl Lam: But things are in the auctions. If these. I think there’s a rules that if it is stolen, you cannot get. You cannot be in the auction.

Judith Benhamou: No, but if it’s the army who looted it. Not really, but that’s why I.

Pearl Lam: Some Chinese.

Judith Benhamou: Chinese are buying.

Pearl Lam: The Chinese are buying. Many of the Chinese are buying. They give it back to the government. Yeah, it’s a favour to the government, which is very good.

Judith Benhamou: Nice and fair.

Pearl Lam: Very good.

Judith Benhamou: And it’s good also for the local Chinese to be able to be able to appreciate how crazily beautifully it was. For example, I like the parallel made between Louis XIV and Chano.

Pearl Lam: No, Chano is. Yeah, it is Louis

Judith Benhamou: And so you imagine that at the same time, in beginning of 18th century, there were two very powerful rulers and channels, one inch in China, one in France, and who had such a beautiful art. This is crazy.

Pearl Lam: This parallel of this, the early time of Chano, is China the height of the most cultural movement.

Judith Benhamou: But I’m afraid, Pearl, that now you become a bit French because you speak about culture of all over the world.

Pearl Lam: I am international. Universal culture does not limit it to one country.

Judith Benhamou: No, but the open mind, without being shallow, is very French. Sorry, I. You know, I want to say something. You know, the difference between, for example, I realise it, between American wine and French wine. The big difference is what we call in France longe, which means that the taste stay long. And there’s an evolution of the taste of the wine in your mouth still. And when you.

Pearl Lam: This is French or American French. And.

Judith Benhamou: And when you take American wine it’s very good, but only one flush and that’s the difference. So probably, as my English is so clumsy, probably when I say shallow, it’s inappropriate or a bit extreme. But what I want to say is that when you, the French wine is like the French interest for culture, it stay long in your brain and there’s an evolution which drives to another idea, another idea and which feed your mind. That’s what I want to say.

Pearl Lam: I love it. I love it using wine. I love it. This is very.

Judith Benhamou: Let’s have a glass of wine.

Pearl Lam:  Okay, Judith, so what is next? What’s your next move?

Judith Benhamou: You know, recently I curated a very successful show at Guggenheim Bilbao. I’m very proud of it.

Pearl Lam: Oh, I missed that show.

Judith Benhamou: So stupid. I’m not able to forgive you. So it was a dialogue, you know, because in my brain, in a way, there’s no boundary, so there’s no geographical boundary, but not time boundary too. So it was a dialogue between the drawing of Richard Serra, it’s a very famous American sculpture, and Georges Seurat was a post impressionist painter. And Georges Seurat created a type, very special type of drawing which inspired all 20th century. So I was showing drawing from Georges Seurat which belonged even to Jasper Jones, even to Matisse, even to Picasso, and even to Richard Serra in front of Richard Serra drawings. And it was an extremely successful show which attracted 500,000 visitors.

Pearl Lam: Congratulations.

Judith Benhamou: It was super exciting. So now I’m thinking about the next step. I think I’m going to. I will organise a very tiny show with Chinese collection. During art Basel Hong Kong, I just published a book about ten extraordinary stories about when Paris was the epicentre of the art world. So ten stories, it’s coming back now.

Pearl Lam: Paris being the epicentre. Exactly.

Judith Benhamou: But you know, I’m telling a story about, for example, Luis Bourgeois, a famous American artist who lived in, who lived in France. And before becoming an artist, she was an art dealer. So I’m told, I’m telling stories like that. And of course I keep on with my platform. Judith Benamou reports report yes, I have 10,000 followers all over the world and I’m telling all my stories from when I’m travelling. And now I’m preparing an article about how impressionism is a 21st century movement. For example, the fact that Monet was painting at the end of his life, like abstraction.

Pearl Lam: Yes, absolutely.

Judith Benhamou: And going back to nature and the fact that there were some women, women important in the art, impressionist art and things like that. So it’s very interesting. I liked my adventure, and I would like new people to follow me.

Pearl Lam: Always new territory. So of course, you have all those new and new readers following you, I won’t doubt.

Judith Benhamou: You know. You know, I want to tell you a very funny story. Not really in relation, but in. In Hong Kong there’s a place called new territories.

Pearl Lam: Yes, of course.

Judith Benhamou: And so I had such a dream about this place because of. Yeah, because of the word new territories. I thought it was like a dream. And I went to see an artist there and nothing special, it was just an industrial place because I just want to speak about this anecdote about the power of the world. Yes, new territories. It was magic. Do you know it was this artist, Firenze Lai? No, you don’t know her. So she’s very talented Hong Kongese artist living formerly in new territories. I always want new territories

Pearl Lam: Thank you, Judith. It’s so nice for you to join me.

Judith Benhamou: It was super. Merci Pearl.

Pearl Lam: Thank you.

Judith Benhamou: Of your generosity.